dagger ws too OP?

[Afania]

I have a pretty well geared DNC and have gotten to go DNC to party content only a handful of times in the last two years. The worst part is that the few times I did go DNC, the party would have been better off if I was on another job. Even now I'm only able to make a marginal argument for DNC over melee-BRD, but at least I'm finally able to make that argument.

As far as DNC goes, you're dramatically overstating the importance and viability of Steps. They're great in a subsection of content where fight times are long, the monsters have very high defense, and you can stack them with other forms of defense down. The rub is that any job can sub DNC and provide steps (like a melee Bard), so you're not really talking about "steps" as much as "steps level 6-10." Steps Level 6-10 are only viable in even longer fights and only matter when the monsters have even higher defense. Basically, it was perfectly reasonable to not want a DNC in your party for the vast majority of content back when we weren't very competitive as DDs.

As far as TH goes, I did go THF much more often than DNC over the last 2 years, but I rarely asked for THFs when leading groups.

You're comparing DNC v.s BRD in terms of usefulness, if that's the case almost all of DD aren't as useful as BRD. Many well geared SAM in my LS has to play BRD 95% of the time, including the ones with Koga. BRD/DNC also isn't a standard pt setup for most of the pt on my server, unless your WHM can cover every required support alone. If you want to compare the usefulness of DD jobs, why don't you compare with WAR.

IMO higher tier BC and incursion NM lasts long enough to worth the use of steps.

I think it's ok for a DNC to get a dmg boost, but IMO it's a bit too strong atm. Now SE has to buff every none SAM DD for them to catch up, which seems like a nightmare because we wouldn't know which job getting buff gonna be even more OP than current SAM.

Even as far as defense goes you have other option which while in different slots add up to enough that steps shouldn't matter. I mean geo + drg + light shotted dia is already -95% def. I doubt there is any nm in the game that you'd need more def down and even if you did /dnc can take you all the way to 100%

If you want to build your pt that way and somehow let the fight end before angon wear, of course you can argue that steps aren't useful. How often do you see DRG GEO COR all in 1 pt though.

[Atomic_Skull]

2H being ranked lower than 1H damage is just the direction that SE has decided to take with the game. If you don't like playing SAM or WAR nobody is stopping you from playing THF or DNC.

Hey wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar now doesn't it?

[Afania]

2H being ranked lower than 1H damage is just the direction that SE has decided to take with the game. If you don't like playing SAM or WAR nobody is stopping you from playing THF or DNC.

Hey wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar now doesn't it?

I don't play SAM, WAR, THF nor DNC. I'm just tired of our WS number gets bigger each update and every NM takes less and less time to die.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't play SAM, WAR, THF nor DNC. I'm just tired of our WS number gets bigger each update and every NM takes less and less time to die.

That's how the game has worked since day 1. Hard content gets easier over time. Then they release new hard content. You should have quit 10 years ago if this was ruining the game for you.

All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

[dasva]

If you want to build your pt that way and somehow let the fight end before angon wear, of course you can argue that steps aren't useful. How often do you see DRG GEO COR all in 1 pt though.

Well if you want to build your party around a dnc and let the fight drag on long enough to get more than 5 steps on then of course you can argue steps are useful. How often do you see a dnc in any party?

Also the moves I talked about were debuffs they don't have to be in any pt just on the same mob. You also don't need them all that was just going fully loaded. In reality the -70% you can get just from geo and cor both highly used support jobs that you do see in the same pt fairly often should bring any nms def down enough for everyone to cap... and guess what that cor or geo can /dnc and get in there and add another 13% if necessary.

[zataz]

not that i really care about what any of u think i will say my rdm is loving this update >.>

[Byrth]

Rudra's can do 40-50k damage at 3000 TP with SA or TA and good gear + defense down on the monster. It may also require Vajra.

Having one or two melee make a multi-step Darkness skillchain (closed by THF) is currently a good way to do damage. The 99,999 nature of the damage is due to a "new" multiplier that SE added during the last patch. Here's a more thorough explanation: http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:S...llchain_Damage

Basically, you randomly get up to a 1.5x multiplier when you finish the skillchain. So sometimes you'll see freak high skillchains (you got the multiplier) and sometimes not. It's possible that we could force this multiplier if we investigated it more (perhaps by using threnodies and Ninjutsu), but no one has done it yet AFAIK.

[Nebo]

It doesn't suprise me that people see more THF winning parses now. Those that endeavor play THF to its DD potential have always had to work harder than other DD's to put out good numbers. Generally, I find the ones that do are obsessing over spread sheets about their gear sets, vs various targets, optimal food, etc. They always had to go that extra mile to prove that they could provide relevant DPS to a group. They always feel like they have something to prove when occupying a DD slot.

A THF like that, just jumped straight to the front of the pack in terms of DPS because they finally gave us a WS that works synergistically with our JA's and skillchaining instead of punishing us. I would point to the fact that several other DD jobs are ahead of both THF and DNC right now in terms of DPS potential, but people just see the big rudra number that comes with holding TP and stacking JA's that have recast timers.

All that big WS damage does is servve to mitigate the fact that we cannot just unleash powerful WS at 1000TP as we wish without concern for position or recast timers like other DDs can. We have to pick our moment and our shot. There is nothing wrong with rewarding that type of strategic DPS play. Other DDs can spam much more powerful WS than our unstacked WS in that time frame.

What's really broken about all of this is the skill chain component. BTW, SAM is still winning that game by a mile. They can solo that shit all day long. Although I suspect that a mythic THF with AM 3 and buffs could replicate this to some degree now.

All this to say, THF is a DD, DNC is a DD, BLU is a DD, WAR is a DD, DRK is a DD, SAM is a DD, MNK is a DD, etc. They all have utility aspects to them. The point is that when a DD has DPS that is not competetive, their utility no longer matters. There is no amount of utility that can overcome that lack of dps. So it's optimal that they can all deal comparable damage, offer different utility aspects and cater to different play styles to appeal to a variety of players.

It appears to me that they are starting to realise this and move in that direction. I am more hopeful than I have ever been with recent updates and conversations about pet jobs, etc. This is the best time I've had in FFXI in a very long time.

[Atomic_Skull]

It doesn't suprise me that people see more THF winning parses now. Those that endeavor play THF to its DD potential have always had to work harder than other DD's to put out good numbers. Generally, I find the ones that do are obsessing over spread sheets about their gear sets, vs various targets, optimal food, etc. They always had to go that extra mile to prove that they could provide relevant DPS to a group. They always feel like they have something to prove when occupying a DD slot.

Meanwhile SAM can just faceroll and still outparse virtually any job save for THF now.

[Afania]

What's really broken about all of this is the skill chain component. BTW, SAM is still winning that game by a mile.

If you read OP's concern, it's mostly because of SC(although he didn't actually mention SC)

We have someone posted 60k rudra SS in this thread, and I've seen rudra did 99999 darkness SC.

In theory, rudra+ SC can do over 150k dmg if you engage with 3k TP.....which is perfectly doable with regain roll.

Now if you have 2 THF doing 2 darkness SC, that's 300k dmg.

Now if you use wildcard to reset JA and give them 3000 TP again, you can do that twice.

Leaden+ 1st THF's rudra= darkness. Leaden + 2nd THF's rudra= darkness. Wildcard and repeat this process again, that's 600k dmg in 1.5 min with THF THF COR as 3 DD setup.

I haven't try this personally, but if it's doable then it sounds insanely broken. Simply because, if you use a different 3 DD setup, such as DRK DRK DRK, you aren't going to deal 600k dmg in 1.5 min unless there are tricks/gimmicks that I don't know about.

Of course you can argue that "600k dmg in 1.5 min? Big deal. SE can just add NM with 2 million HP."

The issue is that you're going to have THF THF COR still kill this 2M HP boss much faster than a different DD setup, such as DRK x3.

I don't know if this is intentional, if it's not intentional, then it's an exploit.

If it's intentional, then it's clearly a design flaw.

There is no amount of utility that can overcome that lack of dps.

This is simply not true. Before Leaden gets 100% AGI mod, I usually only parse around 60%~80% of another DD in delve on COR. Sometimes even lower than 60% if the DD is really, really elite. Even then I still get /tell for invite very often, simply because chaos+defense down from COR can make up the remaining 40% dmg gap. Therefore 1 COR 2 DD> 3 DD, even if the COR doesn't outparse the 3rd DD.

Utility CAN overcome the lack of DPS, period. Anyone believe otherwise is just...biased.

All your other arguments basically just boil down to wanting 1 handed jobs to suck because in your head 2 handers are better.

I love how this discussion turned into "you're just a THF or 1h hater" "You just want SAM to be the best" if I think rudra needs a nerf. If you bother to check this forum and BG, I've been saying that SAM and it's solo SC mechanics is clearly a design flaw and it needs a nerf. When some ppl abuse indi-malaise for 70k+ leaden salute on AH, I said it needs a nerf as well.

So, I'm not a 2h DD hater even if I said SAM solo SC mechanics needs a nerf. I'm not a COR or magical DD hater even if I said Indi-malaise mechanics needs a nerf. But if I think rudra spike dmg is a design flaw, I'm somehow a 1h DD hater?

The amount of bias in this thread is beyond my comprehension.

SE has been nerfing certain game mechanics that made clearing the content too easy for past 10 years, DRK was nerfed, SCH was nerfed, WAR was nerfed, and many other jobs....I don't understand why can't rudra get a nerf.