Warrior Merits

[Byrth]

It's not magic, it's math. Higher numbers profit more from higher values (assume 400 vs 600 WS when considering a 20% bonus, 400*1.2 = 480, 600*1.2 = 720, so the higher WS gets an additional 40 points of damage). Since it's not evenly distributed, it makes more sense to push your higher values.

Also, what kinda gear would you change for Berserk being down? It's not difficult, but I don't see the point in it, you'd still wanna stack up on STR/Attack/Damage as much as possible.

Errr... If you actually do the math, you realize that you need an absurdly low hit rate before this argument makes sense. There was a write-up on this a few years ago when people still used 3/3/4 builds, but I can't be bothered to find it. Try to work out the math for yourself and figure out what level you'd need to be at before it's better to have timers in sync as opposed to timers out of sync. The two cases are:
(Hit rate with Aggressor)*(Damage/hit with Berserk) + (Hit rate without Aggressor)*(Damage/hit without Berserk) = Damage total with even timers
(Average Hit rate)*(Average Damage/Hit) = Damage total without even timers

You don't need to worry about an Aggressor up set really, as the maximum value of such a set is the value of the accuracy it replaces. If it was worth more than the accuracy it replaces, then you should have used it before you had Aggressor up.

Also, realistically the only time I use Aggressor is when I'm trying to Red or Blue proc with a 1H weapon. So no, it isn't worth the 2 seconds of activation time in the vast majority of cases, let alone sacrificing a superior merit build for it.

[Arcon]

ok ukko's destroys RR inside and outside abyssea its not "close" its shits all over it. 2nd that "200" ws dmg boost you lost is transferred to your TP so if im hitting "20%" harder on melee hits i make up for the 200 damage i lost. you obviously have no idea how to play war, in a zerg as war you'd start off with 300% sekki ws x2 then med then ws again and your ZERGING why in gods name would you hold waste 50 tp in a zerg for a very minimal increase in either dmg if your using kings justice or in your already capped crit rate with 2 hour up? so either way your reasoning is wrong. Also any war worth anything outside of red proc SHOULD have ukko's the hardest part is just the VNM's. Also you do realized when i say a war should only have over 100% for sekki thats so you can ws twice right.... not ws once then tp to 250% and ws again no, you solo light a mob and wreck face.

I never said any of these things, I just said there are situations when you don't WS at 100% TP, nothing else. And I've given examples for that, the rest is just what you read into it. Whether or not I'm a WAR "worth a damn" I won't judge, but judging by your posts, neither can you.

Errr... If you actually do the math, you realize that you need an absurdly low hit rate before this argument makes sense. [..]

Cap your acc without aggressor so you don't need to use it at all

First of all, I wasn't only talking about Aggressor (which actually is still beneficial, especially in Abyssea to lower evasion for Retaliation) but also about Warcry/Blood Rage, Warrior's Charge and consequently the SC damage from Sekkanoki. All those things wouldn't receive the bonus from Berserk occasionally, if used out of sync.

Secondly, I actually did the math in this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...der#post_12069

There I calculated 4% Attack increase, but this time let's calculate it over a longer period of time, until the timers match up again, to get an accurate result (A = Attack in TP gear):

5/5 Berserk merits
180s Berserk followed by 70s without until it is up, so one cycle is 250s.

0/5 Berserk merits
180s Berserk followed by 120s without until it is up, so one cycle is 300s.

lcm(250, 300) = 1500, meaning after 1500s they will sync up again, so that's our testing period.

5/5 Berserk merits
1500s/250s = 6 cycles.
Each cycle: 180/250 * 1.25A + 70/250 * 1.00A = 0.9A + 0.28A = 1.18A
Result: on average 18% Attack increase.

0/5 Berserk merits
1500s/300s = 5 cycles.
Each cycle: 180/300 * 1.25A + 120/300 * 1.00A = 0.75A + 0.4A = 1.15A
Result: on average 15% Attack increase.

So on average you would get a 3% extra Attack over unmerited Berserk (my previous calculation only considered the best case, which was ~4%, this however is accurate). Meaning if you TP in 500 Attack gear, unmerited Berserk would give you an average of 575 Attack, fully merited would give you 590 Attack, 15 more.

And again, 3% in Attack increase does not mean a 3% in damage increase. You probably wouldn't notice the difference at all without a parser.

However, WS damage is different. As I demonstrated before, higher numbers gain a more significant boost from bonuses than lower numbers. And WS numbers being up to 10 times the normal TP hit number, the difference will show significantly, even with only 15 more Attack. However, it doesn't stay at 15 Attack, because for WS you equip STR/Attack gear. Here's a detailed calculation, assuming even WS distribution, 600 base Attack from gear and 40s Warcry duration.

Attack: 600
Warcry: 653, extra 53 Attack
Berserk: 750, extra 150 Attack
Both: 803 (600+53+150)

5/5 Berserk merits
5*40/1500 = 13.3% of WS under Warcry
6*180/1500 = 72% of WS under Berserk
Interlaps:
Berserk: [0,180], [250, 430], [500, 680], [750, 930], [1000, 1180], [1250, 1430]
Warcry: [0, 40], [300, 340], [600, 640], [900, 940], [1200, 1240]

=> 75% of Warcry WS under Berserk

=> 0.75*0.133 = 10% of WS under both

=> 10% both, 3.3% Warcry only, 62% Berserk only, 24.7% neither

Average Attack on WS: 0.1*803 + 0.033*653 + 0.62*750 + 0.247*600
= 715 = 600 * 1.192
= 19.2% average Attack bonus

0/5 Berserk merits
5*40/1500 = 13.3% of WS under Warcry
5*180/1500 = 60% of WS under Berserk
Interlaps:
Berserk: [0,180], [300, 480], [600, 780], [900, 1080], [1200, 1380]
Warcry: [0, 40], [300, 340], [600, 640], [900, 940], [1200, 1240]

=> 100% of Warcry WS under Berserk

=> 13.3% of WS under both

=> 13.3% both, 0% Warcry only, 50% Berserk only, 36.7% neither

Average Attack on WS: 0.133*803 + 0*653 + 0.5*750 + 0.367*600
= 702 = 600 * 1.17
= 17% average Attack bonus

Note that fully merited Berserk has 12% more WS under Berserk than the unmerited option. Yet the result is only a 2.2% extra average Attack. This is just an example of how even a little increases for big numbers can influence the result heavily.

And this again illustrates my point. Before you try to point out that the first option has on average higher Attack, note that it is just that, an average, with minimal difference at that. However the latter option places the important bits where it matters. And just now you've seen an example of how increasing large numbers yields proportionally more rewards.

This is still disregarding Warrior's Charge, which increases a single WS damage greatly, making the extra Attack matter even more, and Blood Rage, which increases damage directly, affecting the results even more, and of course Sekkanoki and the resulting skillchain damage, which would boost the Attack bonus even further. And yes, as mentioned before, Aggressor still helps, not just with Accuracy (and there still are a few mobs that require some extra accuracy) but also with lowering Evasion, thus making Retaliation proc more often (which is also affected by Attack).

In the end, the average Attack is the only thing that speaks for meriting Berserk, but that bonus is just marginal. However strategically placing the Attack values can achieve greater effects in the end. If you don't believe the math, test it on Fortifications, merits are easy to come by these days anyway. Just purge Berserk merits and have at it, Fortifications take a flat 90% reduced damage, so the qualitative results will be the same.

[wish12oz]

It's not magic, it's math. Higher numbers profit more from higher values (assume 400 vs 600 WS when considering a 20% bonus, 400*1.2 = 480, 600*1.2 = 720, so the higher WS gets an additional 40 points of damage). Since it's not evenly distributed, it makes more sense to push your higher values.

Know what makes more sense and would mathematically do more damage?
Cap your acc without aggressor so you don't need to use it at all, (which anyone who isn't gimp has done since 75, and you can do now inside and outside abyssea on anything without much effort) then cap berserk recast merits, and keep berserk up more of the time.

[Gokku]

ok ukko's destroys RR inside and outside abyssea its not "close" its shits all over it. 2nd that "200" ws dmg boost you lost is transferred to your TP so if im hitting "20%" harder on melee hits i make up for the 200 damage i lost. you obviously have no idea how to play war, in a zerg as war you'd start off with 300% sekki ws x2 then med then ws again and your ZERGING why in gods name would you hold waste 50 tp in a zerg for a very minimal increase in either dmg if your using kings justice or in your already capped crit rate with 2 hour up? so either way your reasoning is wrong. Also any war worth anything outside of red proc SHOULD have ukko's the hardest part is just the VNM's. Also you do realized when i say a war should only have over 100% for sekki thats so you can ws twice right.... not ws once then tp to 250% and ws again no, you solo light a mob and wreck face.

[Byrth]

The game is currently stacked against Aggressor merits. Outside Abyssea, there aren't monsters evasive enough to warrant using Aggressor. Inside Abyssea, we have up to 120 DEX over normal (90 Acc). The vast majority of the time, Aggressor is not worth the second it takes to activate. That's what makes it incredibly difficult to argue for any merit setup other than 5 Berserk/5 DA.

Your comparison above also neglects the effects of level correction, which would be a pretty major factor on anything WAR needs Aggressor on. You're looking at 8 levels of level correction before we really have to worry about Acc (assuming they adjust the game to keep the balance we saw at level 75 merit camps). 8 level is 0.4 cRatio, which dramatically increases the value of Berserk. As you begin to need Aggressor, Berserk gets even better.

[Arcon]

I never said to merit Aggressor, I would never do that (for exactly the same reason), just like I never doubted Berserk's usefulness. I'm just saying there's really not much point in meriting Berserk either, since using it out of sync will lower the overall benefits. And that holds even when completely disregarding Aggressor, it's just another thing that helps the argument, if only slightly.

I'm actually kinda curious myself to figure out the exact difference, I'm thinking of doing some tests with and without full merits and posting my results. I know it's hard to convince people this way, sometimes I wish there was a cross-server training area in which you could just mess around with people, fight each other and others, would make convincing a lot easier. But parsing results will have to do for now.

Maybe it'll be more obvious when new content is finally introduced that makes Accuracy needed again. Abyssea is really starting to annoy me with how it changed game dynamics, while it is, in itself, a nice expansion, it's made FFXI lose its original complexity and strategy. I seriously hope they don't give ridiculously overpowered buffs like that to the new end game content.

[Gokku]

he also left out any form of tping time with zerk / warcry up and down during the issuing tp phase's. you would have to take the same math you just used and apply it to a 5hit war with 25% haste, or a 6 hit war with 25 % haste ,then factor in the damage and durrations of all melee hits and ws's with stacked and without stacked. so until you do all of the above your math is still wroung.

[wish12oz]

he also left out any form of tping time with zerk / warcry up and down during the issuing tp phase's. you would have to take the same math you just used and apply it to a 5hit war with 25% haste, or a 6 hit war with 25 % haste ,then factor in the damage and durrations of all melee hits and ws's with stacked and without stacked. so until you do all of the above your math is still wroung.

I was about to say this =[

Also, I was always under the impression its not best to stack them, but to use warcry when berserk is down.

[Arcon]

he also left out any form of tping time with zerk / warcry up and down during the issuing tp phase's. you would have to take the same math you just used and apply it to a 5hit war with 25% haste, or a 6 hit war with 25 % haste ,then factor in the damage and durrations of all melee hits and ws's with stacked and without stacked. so until you do all of the above your math is still wroung.

My math isn't wrong, it's incomplete. Yes, I didn't consider Warcry during the TP phase, because I was only looking at the Berserk part. I said how Berserk alone affected the result, and for that it's 100% accurate. The funny thing is (and if you paid attention to my post, you would have noticed, because that was the core statement I made in that long post) that considering Warcry, Berserk merits matter even less during the TP phase. Why? Because it reduces the Attack bonus you would receive from using merited Berserk alone from 3% to 2.2%, making it even less significant (as I calculated above).

And Haste and x-hit setups have no effect whatsoever on the results, since I was going by evenly distributed number of attacks/WSs, and neither Haste nor x-hit builds change that distribution. You'd still do x% of WS during Berserk, y% during Warcry, z% during both and t% during neither. So the relations are all the same, thus the math doesn't change at all. If anything, you'll strive to do most WS during a highly buffed phase (as in, you'll try to get as many WS in during the Mighty Strikes phase as possible), which would count in favor of synchronised abilities, and hence against meriting Berserk.

Also, I was always under the impression its not best to stack them, but to use warcry when berserk is down.

If you look at the boost WS receive, you wanna go with higher Attack at once, it will beat spreading lower Attack out over longer periods (especially if you stack more abilities that profit from each other). The actual Attack bonus they receive over time (average Attack) is exactly the same, since Warcry and Berserk simple add up the percentage they give. Berserk being 25% bonus, Warcry being ~9% bonus, together they simply add up to a ~34% bonus. Here's a detailed example showing the results (500 base Attack).

Berserk + Warcry
40s Berserk + Warcry = 669
140s Berserk only = 625
120s nothing = 500
Total time: 300s
Average Attack: 40/300 * 669 + 140/300 * 625 + 120/300 * 500 = 580.87

Berserk > Warcry
180s Berserk only = 625
40s Warcry only = 544
80s nothing = 500
Total time: 300s
Average Attack: 180/300 * 625 + 40/300 * 544 + 80/300 * 500 = 580.87

So the average attack you receive is the same over any number of cycles. If you're zerging, you obviously want to stack them regardless, since it likely won't even exceed the three minutes of Berserk. Otherwise you receive the same average Attack boost either way. However, as I mentioned before, if you stack them, your WS will increase more in numbers, especially if you stack them with more abilities. Here's the simple example I gave before, 400 damage vs 600 damage receiving a 20% boost:

400*1.2 = 480 (80 extra damage)
600*1.2 = 720 (120 extra damage)

While it was the same boost, the latter example received a higher bonus, 40 more damage than the other version (that's not counting the already higher damage due to higher base, simply the extra damage the second option gets).

[hiko]

My math isn't wrong, it's incomplete.[...]

So the average attack you receive is the same over any number of cycles. If you're zerging, you obviously want to stack them regardless, since it likely won't even exceed the three minutes of Berserk. Otherwise you receive the same average Attack boost either way. However, as I mentioned before, if you stack them, your WS will increase more in numbers, especially if you stack them with more abilities. Here's the simple example I gave before, 400 damage vs 600 damage receiving a 20% boost:

400*1.2 = 480 (80 extra damage)
600*1.2 = 720 (120 extra damage)

but in situation where stacking put you over pdiff cap not stacking is better