Battle System Suggestions - MB/SC, Forced Delay, Enmity

[Mitruya]

It is not the delay that kept DNC and PUP away though. Even if they remove delay DNC and PUP are still behind SAM in terms of dmg output, just check spreadsheet and you'd know.........the correct way to fix DNC and PUP is to give them game changing buff/debuff so they get invite, instead of redesign and recode the ENTIRE battle system for them. That's too much effort and it doesn't fix things at all.

Oh, I get what you're saying, and I agree. And I've said it before, it's not so much delay with PUP than too-short maneuver duration.

[Ulth]

It is not the delay that kept DNC and PUP away though. Even if they remove delay DNC and PUP are still behind SAM in terms of dmg output, just check spreadsheet and you'd know.........the correct way to fix DNC and PUP is to give them game changing buff/debuff so they get invite, instead of redesign and recode the ENTIRE battle system for them. That's too much effort and it doesn't fix things at all.

That makes more sense, and is easier than revamping the entire combat system so I agree. Slash the costs of waltz, boost the potency of steps and sambas. Dancers have the potential to be as good a support as brd. I don't know about pups, but they could just make maneuvers last five minutes like runes. Maybe change the puppet's ai so it will cast haste II on more than just the master, other stuff like that.

[Mitruya]

That makes more sense, and is easier than revamping the entire combat system so I agree. Slash the costs of waltz, boost the potency of steps and sambas. Dancers have the potential to be as good a support as brd. I don't know about pups, but they could just make maneuvers last five minutes like runes. Maybe change the puppet's ai so it will cast haste II on more than just the master, other stuff like that.

I'd be cool with that.

[Afania]

That makes more sense, and is easier than revamping the entire combat system so I agree. Slash the costs of waltz, boost the potency of steps and sambas. Dancers have the potential to be as good a support as brd. I don't know about pups, but they could just make maneuvers last five minutes like runes. Maybe change the puppet's ai so it will cast haste II on more than just the master, other stuff like that.

Honestly, just haste2 for everyone and better pet survive-ability is enough to warrant PUP a spot even if PUP's output stays the same.

[Byrth]

In JRPGs there may be different delays associated with actions, but (at least for all the ones I've played) using the action itself takes no time and everyone else's ATB gauge freezes while whatever action you pick executes. That's a very different dynamic than what we have in FFXI.

This is what our global lockout timer does to gameplay at the delay cap, with all these calculations being done after the most recent update:

The job adjustments had no impact on whether or not Dancer is used, and here is why:

Every time you use a JA, you incur a forced delay (minimum of 1 second, in practice about ~1.3 seconds on average). I adjusted Motenten's sheet to model the changes to Ternary/Striking flourish and assign their JA delay to that TP/WS cycle, as well as added JA delay for other things like Steps.

Assumptions:
* 80 delay (~1.3 seconds) per JA. -- This is a favorable assumption because it assumes every JA is followed by a WS. It represents the maximum possible efficiency given server-client transfer times and very probably underestimates the real JA delay.
* A 3 minute fight, which is essentially the most favorable possible assumption for Steps.
* The modeled player was responsible for applying the Steps.
* Berserk, Haste Samba, etc. were all applied at the beginning of the fight, and that Haste Samba would have to be applied twice.
* I used Pyrrhic Kleos and Climactic-Rudra's as my two test cases. I didn't use Evisceration because I originally set out to test Tier 3 flourishes and they're all fairly worthless with Evisc.
* No build-up time for step potency. It was assumed to be instantly 100% potent, so 10 steps would be -23% Defense from the first second of the fight.
* My own gear.
* One BRD for buffs.
* No skillchains
* Reverse Flourish is an instant 1000 TP for WS.
* Steps are 100% Accurate

Some conclusions:
1) Climactic is the only Flourish worth using before a WS. Ternary, Striking, and Building are each a net DPS loss in most situations simply due to their activation times (not counting the time it takes to get steps).

2) In a buffed situation, Feather Step starts having a negative impact on the DNC's DPS almost immediately. I found that level 1 was a net DPS gain for the DNC, but after that it went downhill. Might have been different if I modeled Evisceration.

3) Box Step is worthwhile until you cap Ratio.

4) With capped magic Haste, using a 5% DW Toetapper Mantle and not using Haste Samba was essentially equivalent to using Haste Samba (-1% DPS) and I'm not even sure that's the most efficient tradeoff. Considering Haste Samba doesn't help SAMs, DRKs (in a 3 min fight), DW jobs, or H2H jobs, this would be a way to simplify your playstyle.

5) Saber Dance is only a net +3% DPS. Given that you don't really need Haste Samba (#4), there will be times when Fan Dance is a more reasonable option.

6) Reverse Flourish is definitely worth using if you don't attribute any of the delay from FM generation to it (80 delay). If you attribute two JAs worth of delay (160) to it, it's still minorly worth using. Three JAs (240 delay) make it not worth using anymore, so you basically should never use useless steps to build FMs for Reverse Flourish, because you'll always need at least 3 JAs (Presto + Feather Step + Reverse Flourish or Step + Step + Reverse Flourish) to get a full WS worth of TP back even with Terpsichore.

Disclaimer: It is possible to precharge Presto, Striking Flourish, etc. when moving between mobs so the JA delay is effectively negated, which I do. I was looking to evaluate the changes from this update together, though, so a 3 minute fight is really the best place to do it.




Does this make the problems with Dancer a little more clear? In the ideal group-event case outlined above, you use Box Step-> WS until you cap it and mix in two Box Step -> Climactic Flourish -> Rudra's Storms combos and as many Reverse Flourish -> WSs as you can while you have free FMs. You use Feather Step at most once. You probably don't use Haste Samba or Saber Dance unless your WHM is on top of their stuff or you're doing an event with a WAR or DRG. After you max out Box Step, you just sit there spamming WSs and not using any of your Dancer specific JAs.

[Afania]

I get where you're coming from, and to a degree I agree. But whether abilities and spells are designed around this or not, they most certainly are not balanced around it, else you'd never have instances where using these things is harmful to your performance. Varying degrees of use according to the situation, haste values, buffs, etc, sure, but harmful? That shouldn't be the case IMO.

I don't view it as "harmful to performance", it's making a choice. I use steps a lot in incursion and always cap def down in incursion. I never feel it's "harmful to my performance" because it seems that it's dmg increase in the long run.

In delve I only use 1 step or I don't use it at all, because the NM dies in less than 30 sec so it doesn't seems to worth the effort to cap it.....by the time I cap it's dead already.

If you have no penalty for using it, then you'd just cap steps in all situations, instead of making a choice between lv 5 steps or lv1 or no steps.

In JRPGs there may be different delays associated with actions, but (at least for all the ones I've played) using the action itself takes no time and everyone else's ATB gauge freezes while whatever action you pick executes. That's a very different dynamic than what we have in FFXI.

The actions in FFXI also takes no time to execute, it's just that you can't do anything after you execute it.

If I remember correctly, in FFX you make a choice first, then depending on the action you pick, you may have to wait longer for your next turn.

[Malithar]

If you have no penalty for using it, then you'd just cap steps in all situations, instead of making a choice between lv 5 steps or lv1 or no steps.

I agree, the situations you listed are good examples of making that choice, and choices are good, like when I said the potency/use could vary, but it should still be positive regardless, or at the very least not detrimental. I'm more referring to say, using Haste Samba when your, or no one else's, TP set is setup for it, incurring JA delay and TP loss, even loss of additional procs from enspells and such, for no gain, using jumps under high haste without Ryu, overwriting a main War's Warcry with your /War Warcry (unintentional or otherwise, this is rage worthy), attempting to actually keep an Automaton's Maneuvers up while DDing, etc. These types of abilities and many other's are not balanced around the game as it is currently.

Again, I'm all for choice (use x ability for y benefit on z mob, or save for a time when it's more beneficial), but outside of baked in balancing effects, CD's, etc, usage of abilities or spells shouldn't be detrimental to yourself or your group's performance unless it's a gimmick type of thing, no magic damage during this phase, no WSs unless the mobs doing this thing, etc.

[Ulth]

If you are using the job ability right before a weapon skill why are you assuming the delay is 1.3 instead of 1? Also have you tried climatic flourish <wait 1>, step <wait 1>, weaponskill <wait 3>, presto <wait 1>, step <wait 1>, reverse flourish <wait 1>, weaponskill?

[Byrth]

If you are using the job ability right before a weapon skill why are you assuming the delay is 1.3 instead of 1? Also have you tried climatic flourish <wait 1>, step <wait 1>, weaponskill <wait 3>, presto <wait 1>, step <wait 1>, reverse flourish <wait 1>, weaponskill?

IIRC <wait 1> isn't actually waiting 1 second. It's waiting 1 second and 1 packet cycle, so on average it waits about 1.3 seconds. Every macro line waits 1 packet cycle, which is why they lines don't execute instantly even without wait statements.

If I remember correctly, in FFX you make a choice first, then depending on the action you pick, you may have to wait longer for your next turn.

That's exactly what I described in the post you quoted.

[Olor]

I think the delay wouldn't be so killing if durations were extended and their DD power was increased to offset the delay. But I think the delay needs to be reduced for these jobs at the very least.