Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[Dale]

I dunno. I think people just grew older. It happens. Especially with an old game like this, which hasn't had a facelift in it's 12 years. I mean it looks awesome for a 12 year old game... but it is still a 12 year old game. I don't mind grinding at all. I mean, I have more than 500 hours on my pokemon X game, most of it spent breeding mons... that's not something that someone who hates grinding does.

That said, if pokemon made me walk across the map every time I wanted to check the IVs of my new mons, I would not find that fun. There is grinding, and there is simply wasting people's time. Riding the bike back and forth to hatch pokebabies is something I can handle, but if they took 'fly' out of the game I don't see that improving my experience. You know what I mean? You have to do the walk once, to unlock the area, and there are areas you still have to walk to if you want to go there, but most of my travel is done via fly. Heck they even added cabs to the main hub city so you don't need to walk to the different stores.

I don't think that removing the tedium of travel, for example, means that you hate MMOs. I just think it recognizes that the charm of spending a half an hour navigating a massive map really wears off after awhile... as does waiting 20 minutes for a ferry, which takes like 10 minutes to arrive at it's destination. That's just dead time. You're not even moving. Nor does it even put you on the damn boat if you happen to AFK.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

I don't really have a significant issue with speeding up travel, as long as it's not overdone and doesn't take away from the exploration of the game. So I got no real problems with the waypoints on this game if that's what you are referring too. Though I would prefer MMORPGs to work on ways to make long journeys abroad more dynamic instead of just allowing players to skip them because they can end up tedious.

What I'm talking about is when an MMORPG is reduced to basically an instance panel players open to go anywhere because they cant' be bothered to walk for a couple of minutes. If someone hates traveling or exploring areas then I maintain my original point, and that MMORPGs really aren't the type of games they should be playing. Because that has always been a very important part of the genre and part of what attract players like me to begin with.

I want to feel like I'm in an actual world. Not a lobby with a menu screen.

[Olor]

I want to feel like I'm in an actual world. Not a lobby with a menu screen.

I agree with you for sure, it's why something like PSO never really appealed to me.

That said, I really think FFXI has a good balance now. I mean, the world is still there, there are reasons to go out there... heck to be honest UNLOCKING the waypoints got me to go to places I had never bothered to go to before. Like I had never been to the base of the waterfall in Gustaberg before they put the waypoint there. Now, because it's easy to get to, I sometimes play around there, fishing or leveling my lower level jobs there - because it's quiet and pretty.

[Seillan]

It didn't read like a rant to me

The elitism factor is something I've never been able to understand. Why it matters so much to certain players rather they kill a monster in 5 minutes or 6 minutes is a mystery to me. It seems to them everything must be done as quickly and efficiently as possible else you are worthless and need to go level something else. It's such an exhausting and demanding mentality I honestly don't know how these people go through life without suffering a heart attack.

Me personally, I am a laid back kind of guy. If it gets the job done, then it's just fine with me. My goal in all MMORPGs is to create a character who is the most fun for me to play. I really could care less about his DPS or HPS or any other per second calculation. So long as I am successful and having fun while doing it I consider it mission accomplished.

Well said, couldn't agree more .

[Glamdring]

I don't really have a significant issue with speeding up travel, as long as it's not overdone and doesn't take away from the exploration of the game. So I got no real problems with the waypoints on this game if that's what you are referring too. Though I would prefer MMORPGs to work on ways to make long journeys abroad more dynamic instead of just allowing players to skip them because they can end up tedious.

What I'm talking about is when an MMORPG is reduced to basically an instance panel players open to go anywhere because they cant' be bothered to walk for a couple of minutes. If someone hates traveling or exploring areas then I maintain my original point, and that MMORPGs really aren't the type of games they should be playing. Because that has always been a very important part of the genre and part of what attract players like me to begin with.

I want to feel like I'm in an actual world. Not a lobby with a menu screen.

I tend to agree with all you said. Oh, you beat the prior record for kill speed on X by 1 second? wow, you want a cookie with that? too bad, if the fight didn't drop a cookie you don't get one. because that's how impressed I am with your "accomplishment".

It's a game, I'm here to have some fun, with a reasonable, logical progression of effort to reward. I don't mind helping others, but if we take you in a PUG you need to pull your weight, we aren't putting in null slots just for you to collect drops and achievement points, player 6 in our party is still player 6 and so you are expected to do your part. However, there are easier ways to do some things so don't bitch at me if we lose doing a delve in a PUG of 3 runes, a thief, a smn and a geo in 117 gear because frankly it's not a good mix for the fight! And it was you pick-ups who insisted on trying it that way. Now, I don't believe in the cookie cutter as the only way to beat content and I've beaten enough content while breaking from the mold to know I'm right, but that still requires an intelligent build and smart play-generally smarter play actually, the cookiecutter strategies are designed around easy-mode for the fights.

now, as posted early on there are ways to set things up for rewards for vets to help 1st-timers. Using delve as the example since it's been used most in the thread, if you have already beaten the boss, for every member getting the KI you get 50k plasm and 2 airlixer +2. Was that hard to figure out? new games of course wouldn't be saddled with this mechanic, just have wins get you points, the more wins, the more points, and the points are exchanged for ALL the gear in the game; meaning if you just spam it enough the strongest piece of gear in the game is yours for putting the time in.

[Afania]

I tend to agree with all you said. Oh, you beat the prior record for kill speed on X by 1 second? wow, you want a cookie with that? too bad, if the fight didn't drop a cookie you don't get one. because that's how impressed I am with your "accomplishment".

It's a game, I'm here to have some fun, with a reasonable, logical progression of effort to reward. I don't mind helping others, but if we take you in a PUG you need to pull your weight, we aren't putting in null slots just for you to collect drops and achievement points, player 6 in our party is still player 6 and so you are expected to do your part. However, there are easier ways to do some things so don't bitch at me if we lose doing a delve in a PUG of 3 runes, a thief, a smn and a geo in 117 gear because frankly it's not a good mix for the fight! And it was you pick-ups who insisted on trying it that way. Now, I don't believe in the cookie cutter as the only way to beat content and I've beaten enough content while breaking from the mold to know I'm right, but that still requires an intelligent build and smart play-generally smarter play actually, the cookiecutter strategies are designed around easy-mode for the fights.

now, as posted early on there are ways to set things up for rewards for vets to help 1st-timers. Using delve as the example since it's been used most in the thread, if you have already beaten the boss, for every member getting the KI you get 50k plasm and 2 airlixer +2. Was that hard to figure out? new games of course wouldn't be saddled with this mechanic, just have wins get you points, the more wins, the more points, and the points are exchanged for ALL the gear in the game; meaning if you just spam it enough the strongest piece of gear in the game is yours for putting the time in.

Everyone has different opinion toward fun. For some ppl, it's more enjoyable to "challenge" themselves by playing better, or clear the content 1 sec faster.

Thus it's only reasonable if they only play with like minded players, since beating the content faster isn't your goal to begin with. If your goal is to play the game in a more relaxed pace, and another player's goal is to push his/her limit by playing better, what's the point to expect he/she to play with you? It'd only make both side's life hard.

This isn't elitism, it's just the human nature that not everyone can work together because every individual is different. I tend to try to push the event and get it done faster as well, but that's because that's one way I can have fun from doing the content...I can already clear all delve, it's not challenging/fun to clear them again. But it's challenging/fun to clear them faster than my previous run. I pay the game to have fun, just like you. What's wrong with trying to beat the content faster?

[Spectreman]

I can tell this is going to become one of those 80 page long threads with lots of bickering and personal attacks.

Indeed and i already start reporting. It's always the same people that are too bored with the game and maybe their lives to come here ONLY to bash others threads. I'm not a new player, i've been here since 2004 but i can imagine things outside my reality. And then came to my mind what would be a new generation MMORPG not about graphics or sandbox/themepark discussions but a new era of MMORPG where people actually get rewarded for helping others.

Hopefully there is a moderator in these forums and will notice the behaviour of people like Afania and do what is need to be done about it before these forums get a horrible reputation for those starting the game or those who just want to discuss things about MMORPGs.

[Dale]

Everyone has different opinion toward fun. For some ppl, it's more enjoyable to "challenge" themselves by playing better, or clear the content 1 sec faster.

Thus it's only reasonable if they only play with like minded players, since beating the content faster isn't your goal to begin with. If your goal is to play the game in a more relaxed pace, and another player's goal is to push his/her limit by playing better, what's the point to expect he/she to play with you? It'd only make both side's life hard.

This isn't elitism, it's just the human nature that not everyone can work together because every individual is different. I tend to try to push the event and get it done faster as well, but that's because that's one way I can have fun from doing the content...I can already clear all delve, it's not challenging/fun to clear them again. But it's challenging/fun to clear them faster than my previous run. I pay the game to have fun, just like you. What's wrong with trying to beat the content faster?

When people use the word elitism (at least when I use it) I don't think what they mean to describe are players who enjoy challenging themselves. It's more of a term to describe players who think they are better than others because they can do more damage or have better gear etc. So it's more of an attitude rather an actual play-style I think.

For example: those types of players who join a group then belittle others and tell them to quit and re-roll because they are playing a job they consider inferior. To me that is an example of elitism. And it happens too much in MMORPGs.

So I'll agree with you in the sense there is nothing wrong with a player wanting to challenge themselves. So long as it doesn't translate into that player treating others with disdain.

[Afania]

Indeed and i already start reporting. It's always the same people that are too bored with the game and maybe their lives to come here ONLY to bash others threads. I'm not a new player, i've been here since 2004 but i can imagine things outside my reality. And then came to my mind what would be a new generation MMORPG not about graphics or sandbox/themepark discussions but a new era of MMORPG where people actually get rewarded for helping others.

Hopefully there is a moderator in these forums and will notice the behaviour of people like Afania and do what is need to be done about it before these forums get a horrible reputation for those starting the game or those who just want to discuss things about MMORPGs.

I still don't understand exactly which post I ever wrote on this forum is "personal attack" or "unacceptable behavior". I suppose anything I say is "personal attack" to you because how you determine personal attack depend on who reply to the thread.

Hopefully there's a moderator that can tell the difference between a "personal attack" and presenting legit opinions in a discussion.

Oh and btw, I have reported you for threaten/harass other forum user as well. This forum isn't yours, I have right to use the forum. You have no right to tell others not to post opinions on the forum and label it as "personal attack" if you don't like their opinion.

[Afania]

When people use the word elitism (at least when I use it) I don't think what they mean to describe are players who enjoy challenging themselves. It's more of a term to describe players who think they are better than others because they can do more damage or have better gear etc. So it's more of an attitude rather an actual play-style I think.

For example: those types of players who join a group then belittle others and tell them to quit and re-roll because they are playing a job they consider inferior. To me that is an example of elitism. And it happens too much in MMORPGs.

So I'll agree with you in the sense there is nothing wrong with a player wanting to challenge themselves. So long as it doesn't translate into that player treating others with disdain.

Your description is more like "discrimination" rather than elitism though. There are players who thinks others are lazy/bad at the game, and there are players who think others are elitist/no lifers. Those are all discrimination. If anything, I've seen many "you have no life" comment just like "you suck" comment in this game and on the forum.

IMO elitism means demanding specific lv of gear, even though that lv of gear isn't required to complete the content. Like, insisting other players need a +1 attack ring or something similar.

[Camiie]

So far I haven't found a definition of elitism with a positive connotation.

From Wikipedia: Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

Dictionary.com: noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

The Free Dictionary: e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Although I think the word we're really looking for is exclusionary.