General complaint thread

[Zekander]

I guess I can see now why RDM gets so few updates. The only people I've seen so far on the forums are white knights who think RDM is perfect and people who play other jobs complaining that it's overpowered. I'm sure that the majority of people who play RDM would like to see some changes, but it seems they don't frequent these forums.

I am of the opinion that all the jobs need to be rebalanced, both up and down, and the only way we will ever see any changes is to express our dissatisfaction with the way things are now.

[Dale]

I guess I can see now why RDM gets so few updates. The only people I've seen so far on the forums are white knights who think RDM is perfect and people who play other jobs complaining that it's overpowered. I'm sure that the majority of people who play RDM would like to see some changes, but it seems they don't frequent these forums.

I am of the opinion that all the jobs need to be rebalanced, both up and down, and the only way we will ever see any changes is to express our dissatisfaction with the way things are now.

No job is perfect Zekander - and I recognize that. But I'm not going to sell the job short in areas where I believe it is already effective.

For example: you continually give the impression this job can't melee effectively when I think it can. I'm not trying to be a white knight about it. You are just criticizing the job unfairly in my opinion.

If you think this job is weak now you should have played it back in the early days when it really was horrible. No composure or enhancing duration gear - so by the time you cast all your enhancements it was basically time to cast them again. It was pathetic and all you really could do was cast haste and refresh on the group and sleep the occasional add and enfeeble. But the developers addressed this problem and fixed it - giving us the tools we needed to be able to melee. So I would be remiss if I didn't give them credit when they actually fixed the problem.

[Zekander]

From my experience with RDM so far I would say that a buffed RDM (temper, haste 2, enspell) is about equal to an unbuffed MNK. I don't have the tools to test this theory numerically so this is just from my experience using both jobs for various solo activities (dynamis, salvage, meriting, etc). Now from a solo perspective this is very well balanced. However in parties the gap widens considerably, imo to the point where RDM in melee is no longer worthwhile, given the fact that the Monk gains further outside buffs while the Red Mage is pretty much still limited to only what he can cast on himself. The reason you are seeing only a small gap on Wopket is because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage, hence why SAMs completely destroy him, so this really can't be used as a valid example of RDM melee prowess.

To be fair I'm not extremely displeased with RDMs melee capability. I'm more upset with the mindset of the majority of players who refuse to allow RDMs to even try to melee. So far I've only made 2 or 3 suggestions to improve RDMs melee capability, and they are all very minor changes: A- sword skill, Improved En-spells, and Bravery. And all I've received so far is aggressive opposition from virtually everyone.

[Dale]

To be fair I'm not extremely displeased with RDMs melee capability. I'm more upset with the mindset of the majority of players who refuse to allow RDMs to even try to melee. So far I've only made 2 or 3 suggestions to improve RDMs melee capability, and they are all very minor changes: A- sword skill, Improved En-spells, and Bravery. And all I've received so far is aggressive opposition from virtually everyone.

You are singing to the choir about that. I don't much like the mindset of many players on this game either. And that is 99% of the problem right there.

And I don't really aggressively oppose any of your actual ideas. It's usually just the way you present them - such as this spell being useless etc. But I'm glad to hear you aren't extremely displeased with RDM melee at least. That's a start .

[Selindrile]

ok here we go again... you are forgetting about relic feet: 5/5 merits = 25%, add feet, that's another 25%. so you're looking at 7.5 minutes. I put about 8 with a question mark because I knew it was somewhere around there. Sometimes I wonder if you play BLU as much as you say you do. Or maybe you just don't play it properly/gimped. You say I have a pattern of over exaggerating. where? that's right, I don't. I also question the things you say because you lumped a BLU in the PLD party. And you seem to think PLD needs haste. All events that a PLD is brought to is because there are RNGs. Decoy Shot says hi. Any other fights you don't bring PLDs because it is a waste. Sure, giving the PLD haste will benefit, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Maybe you play with a group of people in a non-standard way where you put BLUs in with PLDs, more power to you. The rest of us don't.

The reason I say those things about BLU is I've seen 2 BLUs in delve keep an NM terrorized for almost the entire duration of its life. I've seen a BLU be able to heavy gravity a ton of mobs and kite them in pinch situations or just spam that spell and kill them all at once. I've seen BLU erasega and fully heal the party as if it was a WHM. I've seen BLU with like 3000 defense (though I think he might have had a minne or two), my PLD doesn't come even close to that. I've seen mythic BLU with unlimited MP. I've seen BLU outparsing MNKs. The list goes on.

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

As to your comment regarding how I fared against that MNK, keep in mind that I am not anywhere near the average RDM. I have put massive amounts of time and effort into it and have pretty much the best gear in all aspects. You also need to keep in mind that the SAMs were doing over double the damage of the MNK. Now SAMs are waaaaaay OP.

1.) Diffusion Flutter - 7:14, a big issue is that Blu cannot reapply to anyone other than themself if a slow or dispel happens, Rdms Haste2 lasts an extremely long time as well, pretty sure it's over 4:30 minutes on other people with cape augment and aby+2 gear and composure, and can reapply it, and it's like 13+ minutes on self.

2.) While I agree, no idea why you'd put a Blu in the Pld party, hasting Pld can be extremely nice, depending on what you're doing, primarily for Flash and Reprisal timers, but admittedly it's non-crucial.

3.) I've seen one Rdm keep many a NM stunned for the entire duration of it's life, even without chainspell at times, the number of relevant mobs that Blu can keep locked down is FAR more limited.

4.) Rdm can "Magic Cleave" anything Blu can, just as easily, probably moreso because of elemental nuke diversity, and could also Gravity-ga as well, though there's not many times that's really called for, for Rdm or Blu.

5.) Erasega is a fair point, but there are plenty of things Rdm has going for it that Blu doesn't as well. Phalanx (light years better than Blu's phalanx replacement in 99% of situations where you'd use it) Being able to keep up Haste2 on others, Flurry 2, Refresh 2 (fair point on Blu Mythic, thing is ridiculous, but very few people actually have one) AoE Nuke diversity as opposed to only having Subduction for a good Cleave option, wind onry annoys me more often than you might think. Terror works on VERY FEW mobs, Stun works on most, and with 12s recast (8s with march2), you get a lot of invites as a stunner.

6.) Pretty sure 3000 Defense isn't remotely maintainable, perhaps with Harden Shell up, I know on Pld/Blu I maintain 2400~ish DEF when supertanking the AA, this is with Double Minne (one march for Reprisal recast), Cocoon, Food, and capped PDT/Shadow Mantle not to mention PDT obviously generally being generally less important than PDT to cap, 3000 was probably making some tradeoffs, and I'm absolutely certain if Pld got an AoE'd Harden Shell, they'll get higher Defense than Blu anyday, due to gear availability.

7.) I've seen X job outparse Y job a million times, we're talking about generalizations, you don't usually see Blus outparse Mnks, possible, but in most situations, with similar gear and skill and randomization, the Mnk will win, but anyone can win situationally.

8.) I've done every role on multiple jobs, including both Rdm and Blu, when we call Rdm a support, we're saying that's the way the community generally views them, hardly a personal bias.

It boils down to the fact that if Blu's were so "OP" why are they generally far less desirable than Rdm? I can't stress that enough. You can certainly bring them to events, but they're rarely the most popular or the optimal choice. Rdm is used far more frequently, and that speaks volumes as to their overall ability.

That said, I'm not lamenting Blu's place in the world much, I consider them (as viewed by the community) the fourth most desired (able to join events) job that takes up a "DD slot", after Sam, Mnk, and Rng (though admittedly Rng only for some events).

Rdm takes a different slot than Blu would, and there are less people competing for the "support slot"s generally than the "DD slot", that alone makes them generally more desirable. Though in terms of overall "support role" desirability, they're generally behind Brd and Whm, but after that Rdm/Cor/Geo/Sch desirability varies wildly from event to event.

--All this said, I'm not opposed to Rdm getting buffed, especially in the melee department, it's sad that even soloing, they're generally better off spamming T1 nukes than actually meleeing, and meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. I'm just opposed to calling Blu "OP", when there are far worthier targets to receive that title (Sam, Brd, Mnk), and even them, I'd generally rather see other jobs buffed than them nerfed.

Edit: As to Pld, Had 2700 Defense at the start of the fight with 2hr Bard songs just now and 2 Minne I think, but, after Brd 2hr wore I think I was pretty much 2250 for the rest of the fight, also songs fluctuated some.

[Zekander]

I really don't want to get into this debate, but I have to point out that the only aoe spell RDM gets natively is Diaga... Meaning that in order to "Magic Cleave" we are forced to either use /SCH Manifestation, once every two minutes, or /BLM in which case the highest aoe spell we have access to is Aeroga II. And if you are saying that BLU's aoe nukes are only the strength of a tier II spell, then that really ought to be addressed, but I don't believe that is the case.

I really don't want to compare RDM to BLU, BLU is supposed to be a DD job, RDM is not. All I want is for it to be acceptable and possibly even helpful for RDM to melee in most circumstances, as you yourself said, meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. If RDM could melee for a reason other then purely for damage that would be fantastic, if for example our En-spells also inflicted a potent debuff. But that would probably require some drastic changes which SE is unlikely to do.

[Dale]

I really don't want to get into this debate, but I have to point out that the only aoe spell RDM gets natively is Diaga... Meaning that in order to "Magic Cleave" we are forced to either use /SCH Manifestation, once every two minutes, or /BLM in which case the highest aoe spell we have access to is Aeroga II. And if you are saying that BLU's aoe nukes are only the strength of a tier II spell, then that really ought to be addressed, but I don't believe that is the case.

I really don't want to compare RDM to BLU, BLU is supposed to be a DD job, RDM is not. All I want is for it to be acceptable and possibly even helpful for RDM to melee in most circumstances, as you yourself said, meleeing is supposed to be one of their abilities. If RDM could melee for a reason other then purely for damage that would be fantastic, if for example our En-spells also inflicted a potent debuff. But that would probably require some drastic changes which SE is unlikely to do.

I don't think manifestation works with our nukes either. So our situation is pretty dire when it comes to AoE damage. That's not one of our strengths and I would say Blue Mage definitely has us beat there.

[Selindrile]

Manifestation doesn't work with nukes, I was referring to /Blm for cleaving, though /Sch gives access to Breakga/Sleep2Ga/Gravija/Phalanxga which is of situational use, but not for cleaving.

For cleaving, my Thundaga 1 does about 1k to the mobs in marjami with rather mediocre Hagondes+1 augments (52Macc, 46matk) my subductions do about 1500 with mostly the same gear, but only because of the non-multitarget reduction) higher tier nukes may do more on Rdm but they wouldn't be as MP efficient.

In total for me, this makes Blue Mage better for cleaving in situations when you have access to trust (and thus Phalanx2), but for solo cleaving Dynamis for example, I go Rdm over Blu because I can pull bigger pulls with Phalanx over my Blu, I also nuke with Stonega in Dynamis for about 850ish iirc, which is plenty enough and more MP efficient than Thundaga.

If I do get a Rdm friend to go with me and Phalanx2 my Blu, Magic Hammer is pretty ridiculous for recovering MP on trash mobs that have MP such as dyna, but alone? Barrier Tusk doesn't remotely replace Phalanx, and usually isn't worth setting, especially against trash mobs whereas phalanx is a huge benefit on them.

In Skirmish Rdm/Blm is generally preferable to Blu generally because they can also Haste2/Dia3 and still nuke when the situation calls for it (Umbrils, Slimes)

[Zekander]

So basically the only reason RDM can magic cleave is because it gets a lot of MAB gear and because SE superbuffed the low tier nukes. Just a year ago RDM would not be able to do that much aoe damage by any means. Yeah, yeah, get with the times, but my point is that aoe is not supposed to be a strength of the RDM job (if it was we would have gotten aoe enfeebles a long long time ago). Whereas Subduction is only one of many BLU aoe spells, and I doubt it's the most damaging.

And that's all ignoring the fact that RDM and BLU really shouldn't be compared to one another. It's the obvious parallels I know, but the two jobs are supposed to fill different roles.

[Selindrile]

Responding to your post:

So basically the only reason RDM can magic cleave is because it gets a lot of MAB gear and because SE superbuffed the low tier nukes. Just a year ago RDM would not be able to do that much aoe damage by any means. Yeah, yeah, get with the times, but my point is that aoe is not supposed to be a strength of the RDM job (if it was we would have gotten aoe enfeebles a long long time ago). Whereas Subduction is only one of many of BLU's aoe spells, and I doubt it's the most damaging.

Yes, same is true of Blm, Sch/Blm, Geo/Blm and TBH, with the right support you can probably cleave on silly stuff like Brd and Whm etc, but that wouldn't be particularly efficient. But frankly the main reason Rdm is one of the better jobs for cleaving is because of Phalanx. Blu's mostly not that great at cleaving without it either, wouldn't have been possible for them without Rdm support or Trust, which is a game changer.

Blu's AoE spells traditionally have always been terrible, notable exceptions being Charged Whisker and Subduction, anything else is not nearly as efficient taking MP/Damage/Casting time into account (Embalming Earth/Tempestous Upheaval and Rending Deluge h ave all come about in this last year, and they're not bad, but not superior to Subduction).

And as far as what a job was "meant" to do, Ninja wasn't meant to be a tank, until it was, jobs roles are determined both by the designers and the players. I think both Blu and Rdm would be considered decent cleavers in present day. Rdm better when you don't have an outside source of Phalanx such as trust, Blu better when you do (except on mobs that don't take damage from wind).

As to them being incomparable, there's a grain of truth to that mainly because they're not competing for the same slot in party composition, usually. But I see no problem with comparing their overall merits and overlapping roles when they do occur.