[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

You wouldn't know it to look at it now, but that game used to have a wide range of different support classes and play-styles. But they were all destroyed because they didn't do enough damage to satisfy those players who see everything in terms of DPS DPS DPS. And it would be tragic to see a similar result happen here.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

[Camiie]

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

[Dale]

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful. .

They were done away with because people were ostracizing all of the support-style classes because they didn't do as much damage. Very similar to what is going on here. Because jobs that don't do as much damage as others usually have other elements to them - which is why SE designed them to do less damage in the first place.

I'm not opposed to beastmaster improvements.

I'm
I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had..

And I disagree. I like beastmasters and their ability to off-tank is very handy. I will welcome one into my group any time and not regret it so long as they are well-played.

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.

And I guarantee you the main reason it is suffering is because of these players who obsess over damage and can't appreciate anything else.

[Afania]

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

[Dale]

This should be discussed in a case-by-case basis, it's not black or white.

There are certain job that I think it's just fine, IMO THF, BLU, DNC, MNK, DRG, RNG and COR are just fine, even though they do less dmg than SAM. I don't think DRK and WAR are fine and they'd need a buff/unique ability. I think PUP and BST needs a complete overhaul that's more than just dmg buff.

I think SAM def needs a nerf.

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

If you want to discuss the class balance issue, express your opinion about jobs, balance and math, let SE know how to fix it. But don't just pop in the forum and say "It's player mentality's fault for not inviting other jobs! I clear events without those jobs all the time!"

And I would ask you to do the same.

If you want to discuss class balance and your opinion about jobs that is fine. But if someone does it in the context of saying certain jobs do not contribute to a group or aren't worthy a party invite - then you are broadening the scope of your argument in ways I will challenge and dismiss as an exaggeration created by obsessive players.

And if you view my earlier posts, I have discussed ways to improve jobs without ever referring to the player mentality. You keep acting as if I always just bring that up - but that's just not true. I only bring it up when people start exaggerating. Though even when I don't bring it up - you still attack my opinions and say they are not legit. So it really doesn't matter what I say to be honest

[Ulth]

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

Well yeah it is a little exaggerated. In the condition where thief can sneak attack and trick attack reliably their damage is on par with the normal damage dealers. Only the problem is after the first sneak attack enmity is capped and the mob is spinning like a top. For pulling hate, that is the best case scenario for thief. On difficult AA fights when you pull hate you get a hate reset, because you die. I don't even use sneak attack in those fights because the down time from weakness isn't worth it. On the topic of enmity, accomplice and collaborator are only useful in "oh shit" situations when the white mage pulls hate. Even then it hardly works because unless the white mage is on the ball for that, they die on the first hit. It would be nice if thief could use it proactively to keep the white mage's hate from getting there, but the range is too short, and the devs already told us if they made it longer it would blow up the server.

So yeah thief's two special snowflake uses are treasure hunter and enmity control, and their enmity control is useless. The following is a list of other things thief is known for that is also useless: Gilfinder, Evasion, Resist Gravity, Mug, Hide, Feint, Despoil, Conspirator. Then there is the general things that mobs do that mess with thief like everything doing aoe knockbacks that bind and are unavoidable.

I also feel something should be done to improve dual wield, but that is less of a thief issue and more of a NIN, DNC, THF, BLU issue.