[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

You claimed that a job that can solo can hold its own in group play, and that simply isn't the case. Now I get that "holding its own" is subjective, but when your job's sole purpose is DPS and even at your best you are orders of magnitude behind someone half-assing another job then something is terribly wrong in my opinion.



Because that is what the job is there for. To not simply do damage, but to do the most damage possible.

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

[Mitruya]

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

[Dale]

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

[Mitruya]

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

[Afania]

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

[Dale]

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

You can call me out if you wish. But I remain convinced that is a player mentality issue to blame for people feeling as if they don't contribute to a group rather than some grave imbalance.

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another. That is what I blame the player mentality for - causing people to feel that way about their jobs. And that is why I felt the need to just pop in.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

[Afania]

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

[Ulth]

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

I guess that depends on if you want to be as strong as just a WAR, SAM, or MNK. Or be as strong as them when they have an entire back line supporting them.

[Mitruya]

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

Yeah, I do understand, and I appreciate the baby steps. It's just not enough yet for anyone to let me come PUP to endgame.

[Camiie]

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible?

When the DPS/DD class was invented.

As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?