[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

I just said this playstyle thing is case-by-case. While your question did not specify a playstyle. This is your original question:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

Again, how can I answer this question if you don't be specific about the job/playstyle? There's no definite yes/no to this question.

If a DD come to AA subbing NIN and do less dmg, even if we don't win I still wouldn't view it as a punishment.

If a DD come to yorcia with a sword and a shield, even if we win I'd still view it as an ineffective playstyle.

Again, if you have a problem with the community(pretty sure I'm not the only one having an issue with a shield DD in this game) because of this, then there's nothing I can do to change that.

Just don't twist the meaning of my opinion into something else. Not accepting certain playstyle that does less dmg is not the same as not accepting ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

I am not trying to twist anything lol

I just asked you what I thought to be a simple question. I don't understand why I have to insert a specific example of a play-style for it to be answerable. But what ever, I will insert a specific case-by-case example if that's what it takes. So let me ask it this way: and I will even put it in personal terms since you bring up a shield DD and require specificity.

If I was to join your group as a DD on my paladin sporting a sword and shield and wearing dps gear would you view me as punishing you and the rest of your group even though my contribution wouldn't hinder the raid or grind from being successfully completed?

How is that?

[Afania]

I am not trying to twist anything lol

I just asked you what I thought to be a simple question. I don't understand why I have to insert a specific example of a play-style for it to be answerable. But what ever, I will insert a specific case-by-case example if that's what it takes. So let me ask it this way: and I will even put it in personal terms since you bring up a shield DD and require specificity.

If I was to join your group as a DD on my paladin sporting a sword and shield and wearing dps gear would you view me as punishing you and the rest of your group even though my contribution wouldn't hinder the raid or grind from being successfully completed?

How is that?

This isn't a simple yes/no question as well.

I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on DD PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.

And no, I don't have an issue with a DD PLD, but using a shield isn't DD PLD build.

[Dale]

This isn't a simple yes/no question as well.

I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.

So your answer was yes then. It's like trying to pull teeth with you isn't it Because I specifically pointed out I was using a sword and shield and not a great sword.

And that is where we disagree and what this debate has really been about from the beginning. The rest was just a smoke screen. Because you think others have to live up to your own expectations about how they should play their job to maximize damage otherwise you see them as punishment to the group and don't want to play with them. Even if them being there would in no way hinder the raid or grind from being successful. And in my opinion, that is just a piss-poor way go about playing with other people on an MMORPG.

[Afania]

So your answer was yes then. It's like trying to pull teeth with you isn't it Because I specifically pointed out I was using a sword and shield and not a great sword.

And that is where we disagree and what this debate has really been about from the beginning. The rest was just a smoke screen. Because you think others have to live up to your own expectations about how they should play their job to maximize damage otherwise you see them as punishment to the group and don't want to play with them. Even if them being there would in no way hinder the raid or grind from being successful. And to me, that is just a piss-poor way go about playing with other people on an MMORPG.

Well, too bad for you. When you're in a team, it's unrealistic to expect everyone else have no expectations. In my case, I expect pt member to make effective choices on gearing, instead of purposely choosing certain ineffective playstyle because they just want to do it their way.

That's how FFXI community and real life works, it's barely just my opinion. Your family have expectations on you, your co-workers have expectation on you, it's just human nature to have expectations when interacting with each others. If you want to work with others, you have to live up to other's expectations, that's life.

I simply observed what happened in the game word and make choices based on observations.

FYI, you got at least 6 ppl replying negatively regarding shield DD, I'm not sure why direct your opinion toward me. This is not just how I think. If you think it's all Afania's issue, try to make a yorcia PT on a shield PLD, or invite a shield PLD to a yorcia pt, see what kind of reply you'd get.

I bet you'd get negative reply like "this is not SAM!" even with a GS PLD.

[Dale]

Well, too bad for you. When you're in a team, it's unrealistic to expect everyone else have no expectations.

That's how FFXI community and real life works, it's barely just my opinion. I simply observed what happened in the game word and make choices based on observations.

FYI, you got at least 6 ppl replying negatively regarding shield DD, I'm not sure why direct your opinion toward me. This is not just how I think. If you think it's all Afania's issue, try to make a yorcia PT on a shield PLD, or invite a shield PLD to a yorcia pt, see what kind of reply you'd get.

I bet you'd get negative reply like "this is not SAM!" even with a GS PLD.

No it's not too bad for me at all. Because I often play as a damage dealer with my Paladin using a sword and shield when I group. I don't always tank. And we do just fine and have a lot of fun while doing it. We also win and get nice stuff I can use to upgrade my character. So I really don't see what there is for me to feel bad about. Hell, I even DD on my Red Mage too often enough.

You see not everyone on this game thinks like you do. You might consider that your opinion represents the so-called community but it really doesn't and is no more important than my own opinion. And I would be more than happy to play with a shield DD anytime.

Sure, they may not do as much damage as a samurai or some other two-hander job. But if they are well-played with good gear they can contribute just fine and certainly don't punish my group.

Also: you are once again exaggerating. There is a huge difference in having extremely high expectations that everyone play their job as you think they should else you won't party with them and then having zero expectations.

[Afania]

No it's not too bad for me at all. Because I often play as a damage dealer with my Paladin using a sword and shield when I group. I don't always tank. And we do just fine and have a lot of fun while doing it. We also win and get nice stuff I can use to upgrade my character. So I really don't see what there is for me to feel bad about. Hell, I even DD on my Red Mage too often enough.

You see not everyone on this game thinks like you do. You might consider that your opinion represents the so-called community but it really doesn't and is no more important than my own opinion. And I would be more than happy to play with a shield DD anytime.

Sure, they may not do as much damage as a samurai or some other two-hander job. But if they are well-played with good gear they can contribute just fine and certainly don't punish my group.

Also: you are once again exaggerating. There is a huge difference in having extremely high expectations that everyone play their job as you think they should else you won't party with them and then having zero expectations.

When I said "too bad for you" it's not about how you want to play PLD, but the fact that you have problem with others having an expectation toward team member in a team. I'm not asking you to feel bad or anything.

I'm completely fine with you only play with friends, I only point out the consequence of your choice: You can only play with friends.

In my case I play with PUG a lot, and I also start lead ls or shout pt a lot. It's not possible to have zero expectation toward pt member and keep things going....I have expectations on pt member just like my pt member has expectation on me as a leader. I can invite a shield DD, but they'd start drama or be unhappy, so I have to have expectations...all the pt member has expectations toward the entire team as well.

If I only want to play the way I want or have no expectations toward pt member, I won't be able to PUG properly, this is how this world works.

Also expecting a DD don't use a shield when they DD is hardly an extremely high expectation....do you even know what extremely high means?

If I have extremely high expectation toward the pt member, I'd only ever invite a Koga SAM that can solo DD yorcia in less than 25 min. Expecting a PLD not using a shield when DDing is a below avg expectation - -. I mean, is it really THAT hard to remove the shield in offhand slot and equip another sword instead?

If anything you're the one that has no grey area.

[Dale]

When I said "too bad for you" it's not about how you want to play PLD, but the fact that you have problem with others having an expectation toward team member in a team. I'm not asking you to feel bad or anything.


Also expecting a DD don't use a shield when they DD is hardly extremely high expectation....do you even know what extremely high means?

If I have extremely high expectation toward the pt member, I'd only ever a Koga SAM that can solo DD yorcia in less than 25 min. Expecting a PLD not using a shield when DDing is a below avg expectation - -.

If anything you're the one that has no grey area.

No I have a problem with your expectations toward the team. And I've already explained why so there is no need for me to repeat it.

I know you want to lure me into another semantic debate about what the word extremely means but I rather not. Use the word high expectations if you want. Or below normal. Or what ever word suits your fancy.

[Afania]

This isn't a simple yes/no question as well.

I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on DD PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.

And no, I don't have an issue with a DD PLD, but using a shield isn't DD PLD build.

Oh and btw, if you use a shield on a PLD mid-event when things go wrong, like WHM died or holding the NM, then it'd still be an effective playstyle....but that only applies to PLD kinda.

If you choose to use a shield on a DD PLD entire time even when you don't need it, then it's purposely choosing a "playstyle" that doesn't work very well.

[Dale]

Oh and btw, if you use a shield on a PLD mid-event when things go wrong, like WHM died or holding the NM, then it'd still be an effective playstyle....but that only applies to PLD kinda.

If you choose to use a shield on a DD PLD entire time even when you don't need it, then it's purposely choosing a "playstyle" that doesn't work very well.

I'm pretty satisfied where this debate ended up so I'm not going to start debating when you think it's appropriate to change to a shield and when it isn't. That's not really my purpose here in this thread.

It took me 10 pages of drivel to do it - but I finally highlighted the differences between us and what is it about your point of view I have a problem with. It's clear neither of us are going to agree with the other. So probably best just to leave it here.

[Afania]

I'm pretty satisfied where this debate ended up so I'm not going to start debating when you think it's appropriate to change to a shield and when it isn't. That's not really my purpose here in this thread.

It took me 10 pages of drivel to do it - but I finally highlighted the differences between us and what is it about your point of view I have a problem with. It's clear neither of us are going to agree with the other. So probably best just to leave it here.

There's only 1 difference between us, you don't like other's expectation in a team and view it negatively, while I just pointed out the fact that expectations exist in life.

If you don't agree then w/e.