[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt..

No it's you who just don't get it. If you are winning then it's not punishment. It doesn't matter if you could have won faster with someone else or not. You still aren't being punished by them... they are actually assisting you to win.

Please don't confuse the game mechanics with your over-broad and preposterous interpretation of what punishment is.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story...

I was never talking about a warrior using a shield in that post. Which is why I didn't mention it.

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it.

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

[Catmato]

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion

You're both doing it. Shut up already.

[Dale]

You're both doing it. Shut up already.

Why don't you shut up

You need to work on your manners. If you don't like my posts, just put me on ignore or something.

[Afania]

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

The reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.

I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.

I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.

Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame.

[Dale]

The reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.

I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.

I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.

Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame.

But I'm not twisting what you are saying. At least not purposely.

You just identify words like help and now play-style and then apply how you mean these words and then think I'm trying to twist what you saying simply because I have a broader interpretation. For example: to me a person's play-style can include what job they choose to play. To me a person can be considered helping even when they may stand to get something out of it. See what I mean? We are getting hung up on semantics.

Anyway, I'll try to be as concise and clear as possible here and use only words we can agree on and ask you this:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

And that's all I'm asking. Forget about the warrior and his shield for a moment because that has nothing to do with this singular question I am asking you. Take it as a whole and having a context all to its own.

And if you answer yes to this question: that is what I have a problem with and what this debate between you and me has really been about. Because I think that is a destructive way to look at this game. It helps lead to players alienating a lot of different yet successful play styles simply because they do not do as much damage as other play-styles.

And if you answer no to this question: then I have just fundamentally misunderstood everything I have seen you post on these forums.

[Afania]

But I'm not twisting what you are saying. At least not purposely.

You just identify words like help and now play-style and then apply how you mean these words and then think I'm trying to twist what you saying simply because I have a broader interpretation. For example: to me a person's play-style can include what job they choose to play. To me a person can be considered helping even when they may stand to get something out of it. See what I mean? We are getting hung up on semantics.

Anyway, I'll try to be as concise and clear as possible here and use only words we can agree on and ask you this:

When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?

And that's all I'm asking. Forget about the warrior and his shield for a moment because that has nothing to do with this singular question I am asking you. Take it as a whole and having a context all to its own.

And if you answer yes to this question: that is what I have a problem with and what this debate between you and me has really been about. Because I think that is a destructive way to look at this game. It helps lead to players alienating a lot of different yet successful play styles simply because they do not do as much damage as other play-styles.

And if you answer no to this question: then I have just fundamentally misunderstood everything I have seen you post on these forums.

You used the word "successful playstyle", which is a completely different scenario from previous shield WAR discussions. I'm not against successful playstyle, I'm only against ineffective ones.

Byrth just summarized my opinion in 1 sentence....you have a problem with me/playerbase or w/e, but it's game design issue.

If a "playstyle" is successful, then it's not a punishment, if a "playstyle" is ineffective(like shield WAR), then why would a player choose that "playstyle" to begin with?

When I said "effective", I don't mean "do more dmg" at all. Wearing a PDT- set or /NIN is also a "do less dmg" playstyle, but it's effective in certain situation. Therefore I'm not against /NIN or PDT- set at all.

If you can find a "playstyle" that's effective, show it to the community and explain why. I'm pretty sure some ppl are still willing to try...I try new playstyle all the time, except I don't use ineffective ones.

Whether you're winning or not is not exactly relevant to this discussion. You can technically clear yorcia 6 NM with 3 ppl doing the job and 3 afk players anyways. But you're spending more time in an event with no gain. When you merc a win you're also wasting client's time for lower service quality....so less client for your group in the long run cuz everyone else would just find a faster group to buy win. You know, merc group has reputation as well.

I know you hate to play a vid game like doing a business, but that's the truth about FFXI that there's nothing you can do to change it unless it become an offline game....players are human, they act and make choices like irl. It's not that I enjoy the game this way, I just observe and analyze the fact. If certain "playstyle" clearly doesn't work, there's nothing I can do to change that except post on SE forum. I can only point out "This play style doesn't work" here.

If you have problem with FFXI like this, that's too bad. There's nothing I can do to help you anymore.

So the real yes/no question should be like this:

Am I ok with a different playstyle that works even if it does less dmg? Yes. I'm ok with inviting a DNC, COR or BLU to DD pt. I'm ok with DD/NIN in AA BCs.

Am I ok with a different playstyle that doesn't do anything? No. If a WAR uses a shield, I'd be confused.

It's as simple as that.

[Dale]

You used the word "successful playstyle", which is a completely different scenario from previous shield WAR discussions. I'm not against successful playstyle, I'm only against ineffective ones.

Byrth just summarized my opinion in 1 sentence....you have a problem with me/playerbase or w/e, but it's game design issue.

If a "playstyle" is successful, then it's not a punishment, if a "playstyle" is ineffective(like shield WAR), then why would a player choose that "playstyle" to begin with?

When I said "effective", I don't mean "do more dmg" at all. Wearing a PDT- set or /NIN is also a "do less dmg" playstyle, but it's effective in certain situation. Therefore I'm not against /NIN or PDT- set at all.

If you can find a "playstyle" that's effective, show it to the community and explain why. I'm pretty sure some ppl are still willing to try...I try new playstyle all the time, except I don't use ineffective ones.

Whether you're winning or not is not exactly relevant to this discussion. You can technically clear yorcia 6 NM with 3 ppl doing the job and 3 afk players anyways. But you're spending more time in an event with no gain. When you merc a win you're also wasting client's time for lower service quality....so less client for your group in the long run cuz everyone else would just find a faster group to buy win. You know, merc group has reputation as well.

I know you hate to play a vid game like doing a business, but that's the truth about FFXI that there's nothing you can do to change it unless it become an offline game....players are human, they act and make choices like irl. It's not that I enjoy the game this way, I just observe and analyze the fact. If certain "playstyle" clearly doesn't work, there's nothing I can do to change that except post on SE forum. I can only point out "This play style doesn't work" here.

If you have problem with FFXI like this, that's too bad. There's nothing I can do to help you anymore.

I asked you a simple question yes or no question and you couldn't do it. You instead want to debate the semantics about what different words mean. As usual.

The bottom line is different play styles do work and they can be successful. The fact they may do less damage and clear content slower doesn't change this important fact.

And my problem isn't with the way FF XI is. I have a problem with the way you view other play-styles in this narrow prism of how much damage they do and how fast they can clear content because you see a video game like a business. And if you can't understand that important difference, there is nothing I can do to help you anymore.

[Afania]

I asked you a simple question yes or no question and you couldn't do it. You instead want to debate the semantics about what different words mean. As usual.

The bottom line is you are wrong. Different play styles do work and they can be successful. The fact they may do less damage doesn't change this.

And my problem isn't with the way FF XI is. I have a problem with the way you view other play-styles in this narrow prism of how much damage they do. And if you can't understand that important difference, there is nothing I can do to help you anymore.

I didn't answer because the question you asked was completely different from your previous POV. Your previous POV was all about role playing and respecting ppl with different playstyle, even if it's ineffective. Now you suddenly changed to "different playstyle that does less dmg can work" So how can I answer that? Of course I'd accept a different playstyle that works, except shield WAR doesn't work.

I never argue that "different playstyle that do less dmg" doesn't work, I only argue that "certain playstyle" doesn't work.

DD/NIN do less dmg and it works, DD using a shield doesn't. This case by case, you're the one who's wrong if you think I'm against ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

[Dale]

I didn't answer because the question you asked is completely different from your previous POV. So how can I answer that?

I never argue that "different playstyle that do less dmg" doesn't work, I only argue that "certain playstyle" doesn't work.

DD/NIN do less dmg and it works, DD using a shield doesn't. This case by case, you're the one who's wrong if you think I'm against ALL playstyle that does less dmg.

I told you specifically to view that question in its own context. What ever you think my previous POV doesn't matter. I was merely looking for a simple yes or no to a question I asked as directly and clearly with as much detail as I am capable of doing.

I'm not interested in debating which play-styles you may or may not have meant or what my point of view was. I have moved passed that.

I take your point that you were not saying all play-styles that do less damage don't work. But that's not what is really at question. The crux of the matter is if you view them as being a punishment to the group or not. Not merely just that they work. Because that is the central point of our disagreement. The rest is mostly just semantics and a misunderstanding of what different words mean to us.

Because you see in my mind if the play-style works then it can't be considered a punishment to a group.