[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on.

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

[Dale]

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

[Afania]

lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

It depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?

Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.

I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.

It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it.

[Dale]

It depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?

Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.

I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.

It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it.

Yes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.

But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.

You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.

There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should.

[Afania]

Yes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.

But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.

You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.

There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should.

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story.

I was never debating about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of wearing a shield in different situations though. I made that as crystal clear as any human being can.

My point was not to get annoyed at a warrior just because they are wearing a shield. And it is truly amazing to me how such a simple un-offensive opinion as that can spark such a firestorm. And boy does it prove what I have been saying in some of my other posts regarding the intolerance and demanding nature of today's gaming community. Because apparently its not enough not to play with them, but everyone must be annoyed at them as well. What's next? A lynching? Jezzus.

It's so insane it would be comical if not the fact it deters a lot of really cool people from playing these types of games.

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it.

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

[Dale]

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt..

No it's you who just don't get it. If you are winning then it's not punishment. It doesn't matter if you could have won faster with someone else or not. You still aren't being punished by them... they are actually assisting you to win.

Please don't confuse the game mechanics with your over-broad and preposterous interpretation of what punishment is.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story...

I was never talking about a warrior using a shield in that post. Which is why I didn't mention it.

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it.

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

[Catmato]

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion

You're both doing it. Shut up already.

[Afania]

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

The reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.

I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.

I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.

Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame.