[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

Of course it's relevant. You can't accuse someone of wasting your time if you don't even have to play with them. And that was the context of why I said that. So I'm not sugar coating anything. Just dispelling these ridiculous claims that because a warrior chooses to use a shield that somehow wastes another player's time. Which is absurd.

Also, comparing a doctor who doesn't want to save lives to a warrior who uses a sword and shield on a video game is just silly. And there is more to being a warrior than just doing the most damage possible to make Afania happy or they need to go change professions. Here is what ffxiclopedia says about warriors:

Specializing in the arts of battle, Warriors (WAR) are masters of all aspects of melee combat. Warrior is a very versatile melee job that can equip almost all of the types of weapons available in the game, and thus can fill a number of different roles in a party. Warriors have the ability to wear heavy armor and tank, protecting their comrades from enemy attacks. They are also masters of the powerhouse Axe and Great Axe weapons and are among the most powerful damage dealers in the game. Players starting the game as a Warrior receive an Onion Sword.

So there you have it. Cleary if SE meant for warriors never under any circumstance to ever use a sword and shield they would not have given them the combat skills Sword and Shield to begin with. Oh, and here is what they actually say on FFXI's main site about the warrior class just for irony.

Specializing in the arts of battle, warriors act as shields, protecting their comrades from the enemy attacks.


So even the word shield is in the Warrior's official description of the warrior class. I just thought that was funny. But anyway, my point is it's not against the warrior's profession to use a shield. So can we please stop with the craziness. If a warrior wants to use a shield, leave him be. It's not that insane...

SE's description is irrelevant to how the job can be played though. They can write anything they want, but if they want warrior to use a shield for real, they'd give WAR Ochain/aegis.

How player choose to play the job is mostly based on game design, if SE want X job to use an axe effectively, they'd give X job a powerful axe WS and high skill rank. "WAR shouldn't use a shield" isn't my personal choice nor preference, it's because SE made shield ineffective for WAR, they designed the game that way. Me(and the majority of the playerbase) just picked a "playstyle" based on SE's design. I find it funny that you continue to push the responsibility on Afania, for not letting other players wearing a shield on WAR. Maybe you should ask SE to let WAR wear a shield instead.

So yeah, SE can write something like "We want SMN to be a melee job" all they want, as long as they don't give SMN proper melee gears/JA, it can't be played as a melee job.

You can argue that "But SE gave WAR ability to equip a shield!" Unfortunately, letting X job wearing something doesn't automatically make it a valid play style.

I can equip Ark tachi on my BLU, it doesn't automatically change my BLU into a GK DD.

[Dale]

SE's description is irrelevant to how the job can be played though. They can write anything they want, but if they want warrior to use a shield for real, they'd give WAR Ochain/aegis.

How player choose to play the job is mostly based on game design, if SE want X job to use an axe effectively, they'd give X job a powerful axe WS and high skill rank. "WAR shouldn't use a shield" isn't my personal choice nor preference, it's because SE made shield ineffective for WAR, they designed the game that way. Me(and the majority of the playerbase) just picked a "playstyle" based on SE's design. I find it funny that you continue to push the responsibility on Afania, for not letting other players wearing a shield on WAR. Maybe you should ask SE to let WAR wear a shield instead.

So yeah, SE can write something like "We want SMN to be a melee job" all they want, as long as they don't give SMN proper melee gears/JA, it can't be played as a melee job.

You can argue that "But SE gave WAR ability to equip a shield!" Unfortunately, letting X job wearing something doesn't automatically make it a valid play style.

I can equip Ark tachi on my BLU, it doesn't automatically change my BLU into a GK DD.

Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it can't work or get the job done. And since SE made the game and designed the actual job, they are in a better position to describe what it's actual intention is. So instead of arguing with me about it, you should be taking it up with SE. They are the ones who said it, not me.

But in any case, to imply unless you have an ochain or an aegis you aren't suppose to use a shield is pretty extreme. I know a lot of paladins who don't have one of these either. Does that mean paladins suck also if they use one of these lesser shields? You view everything through the very narrow prism of having to be the very best at something else you shouldn't do it. And this is exactly the kind of thinking I feel is destructive to MMORPG game play. Not all jobs are suppose to be very the best at something. Some are designed to be more versatile in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. And certainly doesn't mean they suck or aren't valid play styles as a result.

And your example of comparing a warrior who uses a sword and shield to a summoner who wants to be a melee job is inaccurate to put it mildly. When you offer such exaggerated comparisons as these it really makes me wonder if you are interested in having a reasonable discussion.

[Afania]

Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it can't work or get the job done. And since SE made the game and designed the actual job, they are in a better position to describe what it's actual intention is. So instead of arguing with me about it, you should be taking it up with SE. They are the ones who said it, not me.

But in any case, to imply unless you have an ochain or an aegis you aren't suppose to use a shield is pretty extreme. I know a lot of paladins who don't have one of these either. Does that mean paladins suck also if they use one of these lesser shields? You view everything through the very narrow prism of having to be the very best at something else you shouldn't do it. And this is exactly the kind of thinking I feel is destructive to MMORPG game play. Not all jobs are suppose to be very the best at something. Some are designed to be more versatile in nature and there is nothing wrong with that. And certainly doesn't mean they suck or aren't valid play styles as a result.

And your example of comparing a warrior who uses a sword and shield to a summoner who wants to be a melee job is silly. When you offer such exaggerated comparisons as this it really makes me wonder if you are really interested in having a reasonable discussion.

You don't get it, Warrior using a shield isn't "not the best", it's "almost equal to not using a shield". You seems to label everything into "elitist mentality" "wanna be the very best", but that's just not the case with a shield WAR.

I also fail to understand your logic, from what you've just said, you can accept the concept of "SMN shouldn't melee", but you can't accept concept of "WAR shouldn't melee", to a point that you believed it's an extreme comparison.

FYI, WAR has C+ rank shield skill, SMN has B rank staff skill, by SE's written description with skill lv, SMN is a better staff melee job than a shield WAR.

What's so exaggerate about comparing a melee SMN with a shield WAR, when a shield WAR is an even worse example than melee SMN?

To answer your question about Ochain/Aegisless PLD....PLD has access to Priwen, WAR doesn't. PLD has A+ shield skill, WAR doesn't. PLD has better defensive ability, WAR only gets defender.

WAR is designed to be a DD job, asking a DD to use a shield is just wasting the potential and not doing what the job supposed to do.

You kept bringing up "valid" playstyle over and over again....but valid playstyle is supposed to be a playstyle that's effective in certain situation.

For example, if you play RUN, you can choose to play offensively or defensively, defensively= tanking, offensively= do 60%~80% of dmg of SAM, with a lot higher survive-ability.

Both are "valid" playstyle in certain situation, because it's effective.

There are many other "valid" playstyle that's effective.....like SAM using ranged attack when they're weakened, COR can melee or /ra depending on situation, BLU can help cure/erase if mages d/c or not on par, all those are "effective" play-style that works.

If you insist that a shield WAR is a valid playstyle, name a specific situation that shield WAR works better than a GA WAR.

Don't just copy and paste some text from the website and tell everyone "we can play WAR this way", text has nothing to do with the content nor the game design.

It seems that you only believe WAR can use a shield, because you believe that I'm an elitist only aiming for the highest dmg potential, but that wasn't my point. WAR can turtle if they need to, they have many ways to turtle, but using a shield to turtle shouldn't be considered.

[Dale]

You don't get it, Warrior using a shield isn't "not the best", it's "almost equal to not using a shield". You seems to label everything into "elitist mentality" "wanna be the very best", but that's just not the case with a shield WAR.

I also fail to understand your logic, from what you've just said, you can accept the concept of "SMN shouldn't melee", but you can't accept concept of "WAR shouldn't melee", to a point that you believed it's an extreme comparison.

FYI, WAR has C+ rank shield skill, SMN has B rank staff skill, by SE's written description with skill lv, SMN is a better staff melee job than a shield WAR.

What's so exaggerate about comparing a melee SMN with a shield WAR, when a shield WAR is an even worse example than melee SMN?

To answer your question about Ochain/Aegisless PLD....PLD has access to Priwen, WAR doesn't. PLD has A+ shield skill, WAR doesn't. PLD has better defensive ability, WAR only gets defender.

WAR is designed to be a DD job, asking a DD to use a shield is just wasting the potential and not doing what the job supposed to do.

You kept bringing up "valid" playstyle over and over again....but valid playstyle is supposed to be a playstyle that's effective in certain situation.

For example, if you play RUN, you can choose to play offensively or defensively, defensively= tanking, offensively= do 60%~80% of dmg of SAM, with a lot higher survive-ability.

Both are "valid" playstyle in certain situation, because it's effective.

There are many other "valid" playstyle that's effective.....like SAM using ranged attack when they're weakened, COR can melee or /ra depending on situation, BLU can help cure/erase if mages d/c or not on par, all those are "effective" play-style that works.

If you insist that a shield WAR is a valid playstyle, name a specific situation that shield WAR works better than a GA WAR.

Don't just copy and paste some text from the website and tell everyone "we can play WAR this way", text has nothing to do with the content nor the game design.

It seems that you only believe WAR can use a shield, because you believe that I'm an elitist only aiming for the highest dmg potential, but that wasn't my point. WAR can turtle if they need to, they have many ways to turtle, but using a shield to turtle shouldn't be considered.

There is more to being a melee job than having a weapon skill. Are you actually trying to suggest Summoner is designed to be a melee job in the same warrior is simply because they have a B staff skill and Warrior has a C shield skill? This is exactly the kind of reasoning I am talking about that makes me doubt you are interesting in having a serious discussion.

And I didn't even mention the word elitist once in that post you are quoting. So you are the one obsessing over this label. Not me.

The truth is your entire post makes my point for me and you don't even realize it. You keep saying give me one example where a Shield war works better than a GW war? Everything has to be better or the best else players shouldn't do it. That's the issue.

MMORPG gameplay was never meant to be about a comparison of numbers to see what way is best and everything else sucks and should not be done. And just because something isn't or may not be the best doesn't mean it is not a valid way to play.

I disagree with you. SE disagrees with you. ffxiclopedia disagrees with you. There is more to the warrior class than just using a great axe. They can be played in different ways. You need to just accept this simple fact and stop trying to push your own very limited view about how the job should be played on to everyone else.

[Afania]

There is more to being a melee job than having a weapon skill. Are you actually trying to suggest Summoner is designed to be a melee job in the same warrior is simply because they have a B staff skill and Warrior has a C shield skill? This is exactly the kind of reasoning I am talking about that makes me doubt you are interesting in having a serious discussion.

And I didn't even mention the word elitist once in that post you are quoting. So you are the one obsessing over this label. Not me.

The truth is your entire post makes my point for me and you don't even realize it. You keep saying give me one example where a Shield war works better than a GW war? Everything has to be better or the best else players shouldn't do it. That's the issue.

MMORPG gameplay was never meant to be about a comparison of numbers to see what way is best and everything else sucks and should not be done. And just because something isn't or may not be the best doesn't mean it is not a valid way to play.

I disagree with you. SE disagrees with you. ffxiclopedia disagrees with you. There is more to the warrior class than just using a great axe. They can be played in different ways. You need to just accept this simple fact and stop trying to push your own very limited view about how the job should be played on to everyone else.

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective.

There's also a lot more than using a shield effectively than writing a wall of text on ffxiclopedia. It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

I suppose if I hack into ffxiclopedia website and change the description of SMN into "A melee mage fighting with avatars", you'd agree that SMN should be a melee job, because the text said so.

WAR has other weapon options, such as GS, axe, or even club. Depending on situation, there's a reason to use those options.

You still fail to tell us a valid reason for a WAR to use a shield though, except "MMO shouldn't be about what's better"

So what IS better in a MMO? If you don't agree with me, you tell me. Don't just deny everyone else's opinion.

[Dale]

SE didn't disagree with me, lol. Cuz if they did, they'd do so with game design, by making a shield WAR more effective. (snip)

It seems that you still insist that WAR should use a shield because the text said so, instead of actually telling me why a WAR should.

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

[Afania]

But they do disagree with you. If SE never intended the warrior to use a shield under any circumstance they would not have given them sword and shield combat skills along with swords and shields they can equip and use.

And I never insisted that a warrior should use a shield. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I don't tell other players how they should play like you. I just said it's silly to be annoyed by a warrior simply because they do choose to use a shield.

SE gave my BLU GK access via ark tachi as well, I suppose that means SE wants BLU to use a GK?

If SE really want WAR to use a shield, they'd do more than letting them to wear a shield. They'd make a shield WAR a lot more effective as a tank.

I don't tell others how they should play, I only point out mathematically effective way to play certain jobs. Ultimately, it's other ppl's freedom to choose a less effective way.

However, I can't do anything to change certain playstyle from ineffective to effective. Only SE can do that.