[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Kincard]

Except it's not, able to cap steps faster is DPS increase for the job itself, and every other DD job in the pt. It doesn't matter if it's annoying, it seems like a DPS gain for the job to me. If you find using JA annoying in FFXI, MNK or SAM is the job for you.

I really would like to think you're familiar enough with this game to know that spamming JAs every 5 seconds is not going to be helping DNC's output, DEF Down or not (and they need to continue using the steps every so often to keep the daze up). The idea that it would help a group is worth nothing too, because nobody is going to get a DNC to be doing DEF Down, they'll just get a GEO if they want that.

The thing about utility for the light armor jobs (NIN, THF, and DNC) is that I wouldn't have a problem with that meaning they have weaker damage output compared to heavy jobs if they could actually figure out what the heck they're doing with this utility. They need to:
-Make DNC's heals and debuffs better and make them better DPS
-Make NINs be able to tank something actually worth a damn, or just give up on trying to make them tanks because they're doing a really bad job at it
-Make THF at least the best DPS of these three because they have the least versatility out of them

I'm not sure about Byrth's claim that NIN is currently a better DPS than DNC, though. I mean, when both of them are all hasted up and just TP spamming I imagine katanas outpace daggers, but currently the place these jobs shine is in trash farmed solo content or whatever, and I'm guessing DNC can do better damage than NIN by self-skillchaining. Not saying DNC couldn't use a whole lot of adjustments because honestly, all three of these jobs need them still.

[Afania]

I really would like to think you're familiar enough with this game to know that spamming JAs every 5 seconds is not going to be helping DNC's output, DEF Down or not (and they need to continue using the steps every so often to keep the daze up). The idea that it would help a group is worth nothing too, because nobody is going to get a DNC to be doing DEF Down, they'll just get a GEO if they want that.

How is potent def down NOT helping DNC's output? Don't you hit harder when your target has defense down on them?

According to wiki,step duration is 1 min. So technically you only need to keep it up after 1 min when you reach max lv.

Unless the target dies in 30 sec so you don't have time to step enough, I'm not convinced that using 1 JA every 1 min after first min of JA spamming result a output decrease. It may be an output decease in first min, but after that I highly doubt it. Or else SAM WAR DRK wouldn't pop their JA like berzerk/warcry. If the fight last over 5-10 min(which is common in Incursion MB fight), you don't use step every 5 sec for the entire duration of the fight, I see an output increase instead of decrease.

Also, unless you can cap attack with a GEO in pt, more defense down is still a net gain in DPS. So how is it "worth nothing"?

There are also times that you can't get GEO, but can get other forms of defense down/attack boost such as COR BLU RDM, and able to reach cap without a GEO. So what's wrong with using it?

It's more of being confuse about the community downplay the importance of defense down, less about defending for DNC tbh. I guess ppl tend to organize party based on parse result gap instead of pt output. Is sacrificing your own DPS for DPS gain in entire pt a concept so hard accept?

I mean, do you honestly expect a job that can do 23%(assuming this is the correct number) defense down parse as high as SAM? Seems severally broken to me.

[Glamdring]

I really would like to think you're familiar enough with this game to know that spamming JAs every 5 seconds is not going to be helping DNC's output, DEF Down or not (and they need to continue using the steps every so often to keep the daze up). The idea that it would help a group is worth nothing too, because nobody is going to get a DNC to be doing DEF Down, they'll just get a GEO if they want that.

The thing about utility for the light armor jobs (NIN, THF, and DNC) is that I wouldn't have a problem with that meaning they have weaker damage output compared to heavy jobs if they could actually figure out what the heck they're doing with this utility. They need to:
-Make DNC's heals and debuffs better and make them better DPS
-Make NINs be able to tank something actually worth a damn, or just give up on trying to make them tanks because they're doing a really bad job at it
-Make THF at least the best DPS of these three because they have the least versatility out of them

I'm not sure about Byrth's claim that NIN is currently a better DPS than DNC, though. I mean, when both of them are all hasted up and just TP spamming I imagine katanas outpace daggers, but currently the place these jobs shine is in trash farmed solo content or whatever, and I'm guessing DNC can do better damage than NIN by self-skillchaining. Not saying DNC couldn't use a whole lot of adjustments because honestly, all three of these jobs need them still.

Gotta disagree with some of your assessments here. Light armor melee aren’t there in a damage role generally but for other qualities they bring to the table. Dancer cures, while more power might help I think they don’t want to step on the toes of healing mages. Also, dancer derives its power from inflicting hits on prey, it is the only job that can do more the more stuff you have coming in, mages need to rest and/or Refresh, even dragoons if they are having to heal spam could, especially with different subs. And dancer is very much like a rdm in design, just fueled by TP instead of MP, and it should be obvious they don’t want utility jobs to supplant dedicated jobs based on the way they keep them underpowered vs. dedicated jobs, e.g. geo and rdm only having tier 4 nukes, only whm has cure 5 or 6, etc.


As to nin tanking, I think most are of the opinion SE never wanted Nin to tank in the first place, players were just less attached to their gil than SE estimated and didn’t mind fishing for Squid. As every mob they are bringing in to new content seemingly strips shadows in 2 seconds or less I’d say it’s pretty obvious SE does not WANT blink-tanking back in any form either. So buffing them in a DD and/or puller role seems kind of natural to bring them back to the table. To be honest, a free ranged attack in a melee round is a little weird as a “fix” but they needed to do something.


As to the Thief DPS/versatility remarks, I think you are way off. First, SE seems to think there is nothing wrong with thief’s hate control abilities (and if players would modulate their damage output to accommodate them then SE would be correct, but players won’t). Assuming you could still SA>WS reliably, then thf will likely outparse both Dancer and Nin, especially if Dnc is using their TP frequently to help the party. If that was working, so would the rest of thief’s hate control, and that coupled with TH makes thief more desirable than either DD Nin or utility Dnc.


Lastly, for a comparison between jobs, I think you need to do your testing on the same prey conning EM, likely 119 mobs. Against those I think Nin will outparse dnc because they hit harder and have that extra ranged attack, while a dancer which may occasionally self-SC may also be healing quite a bit.


Now, as to group utility for any job, it seems SE’s current efforts are directed to renewing the balanced party, I think they want to revive tank/2 DD/Nuker-Ranged/Support/Healer. If they do so, well if you remember back that far there was a great deal of wriggle room in that set-up. Obviously, the way they are going end-game means nin is out as a tank, but monk and (if they can ever get it to work) Rune may rotate in as tanks. Support has the addition of scholar, and I guess blue and geo may be here depending how they are used. Nin is rotated into DD, probably in a hybrid role as a puller, too. Other jobs are frankly a bit muddled, but they have their spots. This will likely be shaken up some as SE tries to work the kinks out yet (and I’m not confident they will succeed in their attempts either), but some of these changes that seem to have no purpose right now do have a purpose if you map the trend across all the jobs they are playing with. In fact, the only jobs I see getting outright hurt are pet jobs, as their pets are being weakened compared to their historical performance, and based on what they have done it is clearly intentional.


The biggest problem actually is that they are doing this stuff piecemeal. I’m sure from a developer standpoint it makes it easier for them to get a handle on what adjustments are working and what aren’t, but it leads to A LOT of player dissatisfaction with seemingly useless updates. And in addition, while we players speculate based on what we DO know-how to play the jobs as currently built + hints from timelines-we don’t have much of a clue what new bad-guys SE is planning to throw at us, let alone in what kind of playsystem, although I think an Aby analogue is highly unlikely. We also don’t know what the eventual AF3 JSE gear upgrades are going to do exactly, except we have been told they are in the pipeline (I hope so, I’d hate to think I was stockpiling chapters for nothing). But any futher adjustment could have a profound impact on play.