[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Malithar]

What do you expect? Potent def down that can be used with absolutely 0 penalty? That'd be totally broken/OP. May as well play the SAM or MNK if moar dmg is what you want.

Considering the amounts of -def Dia II/III (10%/15%, no penalty, unless you're going to say MP, then I'd say stfu), Angon (25%, 60% up keep JA, costs 500 gil or whatever for an Angon), and Geo-Frailty (41%, high MP cost, 1 of 2 bubbles able to be kept up) provide, I'd agree that using up to 10 (but as low as 7) steps to cap the defense reduction at...what was it, -23%, is a pretty extreme cost. Not to say it'd never be worth it, but it's still a lot of work compared to what other -def abilities provide, and while you do gain finishing moves, it's still costing you TP as well.

Edit: Frailty obviously with Idris, I don't keep track of non-Idris numbers anymore, so sub in whatever that is.

[Glamdring]

Considering the amounts of -def Dia II/III (10%/15%, no penalty, unless you're going to say MP, then I'd say stfu), Angon (25%, 60% up keep JA, costs 500 gil or whatever for an Angon), and Geo-Frailty (41%, high MP cost, 1 of 2 bubbles able to be kept up) provide, I'd agree that using up to 10 (but as low as 7) steps to cap the defense reduction at...what was it, -23%, is a pretty extreme cost. Not to say it'd never be worth it, but it's still a lot of work compared to what other -def abilities provide, and while you do gain finishing moves, it's still costing you TP as well.

Edit: Frailty obviously with Idris, I don't keep track of non-Idris numbers anymore, so sub in whatever that is.

it opens a different possible job build for acceptable parties so it's not totally pointless, after all, parties may not be packing a rdm, drg and geo, or allows the geo to go with a different bubble buff/debuff, and I DO like options.

[Malithar]

it opens a different possible job build for acceptable parties so it's not totally pointless, after all, parties may not be packing a rdm, drg and geo, or allows the geo to go with a different bubble buff/debuff, and I DO like options.

If it's to be a genuine option, then it needs to have a similar cost/potency, as Byrth outlined above. Otherwise, why take the clearly inferior option? I'd also argue it's far, far easier to find a good Rdm, Drg, or Geo than a good Dnc, and for the most part, those jobs will bring about a better party output than to bring Dnc so they can spend 30 seconds in JA delay lock per mob.

[Byrth]

Yeah, Box Step is the most expensive form of defense reduction in the game by a long shot. What they should have done is double the potency of DNC steps (for DNC main at 99) and leave the maximum daze level at 5, and then not change the recast of steps. Then we only have to suffer as much JA delay as we used to, we get the same potency of debuff that we get now, and it's *still* effectively the most expensive form of defense reduction in the game.

To expand that list Malithar made:
* Dia II/III - 10/15% defense reduction, takes about 4 seconds to cast and recover from if you include magic delay and 30/45 MP. So it's 3 MP/defense down and 2.5% defense down/second. It is single target and has a near-instant activation time (<1 sec).
* Angon - 25% defense down, costs about 300 gil and 1-2 seconds JA delay (12.5% defense down/second). It is single target and has an instant activation time.
* Indi-Frailty - 37.5% defense down, 147MP, takes about 5 seconds to cast and recover from if you include magic delay. So it's about 4MP/defense down and 7.5% defense down/second. Also, it moves around with (after this update) whoever you cast it on and affects everything nearby. Instant activation time.
* Box Step - 23% defense down at level 10. Costs between 500 and 1000 TP to max out and takes between 15 and 20 seconds of forced JA delay to reach max potency (respectively). It is single target. So it's 22~43TP/Defense Down and 1.15% defense down/second. Not only that, but will take (even after this patch) at least 35 seconds to hit max potency (currently something like 1.5 minutes).


So no, Box step is not going to be overpowered if they scaled its potency up so it was 23% at level 5 daze and reduce the max daze level back to 5 (effectively 2.3% defense down/second). It would still be the least efficient Defense Down option, but the job would suck less to use.

[Afania]

Yeah, Box Step is the most expensive form of defense reduction in the game by a long shot. What they should have done is double the potency of DNC steps (for DNC main at 99) and leave the maximum daze level at 5, and then not change the recast of steps. Then we only have to suffer as much JA delay as we used to, we get the same potency of debuff that we get now, and it's *still* effectively the most expensive form of defense reduction in the game.

To expand that list Malithar made:
* Dia II/III - 10/15% defense reduction, takes about 4 seconds to cast and recover from if you include magic delay and 30/45 MP. So it's 3 MP/defense down and 2.5% defense down/second. It is single target and has a near-instant activation time (<1 sec).
* Angon - 25% defense down, costs about 300 gil and 1-2 seconds JA delay (12.5% defense down/second). It is single target and has an instant activation time.
* Indi-Frailty - 37.5% defense down, 147MP, takes about 5 seconds to cast and recover from if you include magic delay. So it's about 4MP/defense down and 7.5% defense down/second. Also, it moves around with (after this update) whoever you cast it on and affects everything nearby. Instant activation time.
* Box Step - 23% defense down at level 10. Costs between 500 and 1000 TP to max out and takes between 15 and 20 seconds of forced JA delay to reach max potency (respectively). It is single target. So it's 22~43TP/Defense Down and 1.15% defense down/second. Not only that, but will take (even after this patch) at least 35 seconds to hit max potency (currently something like 1.5 minutes).


So no, Box step is not going to be overpowered if they scaled its potency up so it was 23% at level 5 daze and reduce the max daze level back to 5 (effectively 2.3% defense down/second). It would still be the least efficient Defense Down option, but the job would suck less to use.

Although I agree that it's probably better to double the step potency of DNC main and leave it at lv 5, I don't agree that JA delay should be removed nor step can be compare with dia 2/3, GEO spells/angon. It's not exactly fair to bash on steps as a debuff when you consider DNC can DD AND step every target if the player wants.

1)Dia 2/3 is only useable by mages or /mage, not a DD job subbing WAR. A job that can do dia 2/3 probably isn't going to put out same lv of output as a DNC/WAR.

2) Same thing applies to GEO.

3) Angon has a cool down, you can't apply angon on every target most of the time.

Even with JA delay DNC dmg+ step is still a net gain in dmg.

I don't agree with JA delay removal because the battle system already designed based on the fact that JA has a delay, if there are no delay then the battle system needs rework......or else inc MNK boost spam.

[Finuve]

Although I agree that it's probably better to double the step potency of DNC main and leave it at lv 5, I don't agree that JA delay should be removed nor step can be compare with dia 2/3, GEO spells/angon. It's not exactly fair to bash on steps as a debuff when you consider DNC can DD AND step every target if the player wants.

1)Dia 2/3 is only useable by mages or /mage, not a DD job subbing WAR. A job that can do dia 2/3 probably isn't going to put out same lv of output as a DNC/WAR.

2) Same thing applies to GEO.

3) Angon has a cool down, you can't apply angon on every target most of the time.

Even with JA delay DNC dmg+ step is still a net gain in dmg.

I don't agree with JA delay removal because the battle system already designed based on the fact that JA has a delay, if there are no delay then the battle system needs rework......or else inc MNK boost spam.

I wouldnt advocate removing it either, but they can reduce it for certain JAs, or even make it a JT for DNCs that reduces the delay associated with steps (.5s?)

[Selindrile]

Dia 2/3 is only useable by mages or /mage, not a DD job subbing WAR. A job that can do dia 2/3 probably isn't going to put out same lv of output as a DNC/WAR.

Blu's had a comparable Def down for ages, it's only worth casting sometimes and it's hardly overpowered, and takes far less opportunity cost to use than steps, and Blu has better damage output than Dnc/War.

[Kaeviathan]

Corsairs need a boost in skill as well to compensate for their high delay on roll recast and the constant dispels from new contents.

[Atomic_Skull]

I'm back for less than a week and THF gets punched in the balls by SE again. That's one thing that certainly hasn't changed since I left two years ago.

How so do you ask? Well they give Dancer and THF A+ in dagger, but DNC also has Accuracy Bonus III and Dual Wield IV so DNC becomes much, much better with daggers than THF. In effect this is a THF nerf.

[Byrth]

They also gave Ninjas, who were already better DDs than DNC or THF against a lot of content, kick-Katanas. Why don't you declare the death of your job for that reason? By the way, they buffed WAR as well (a better DD than DNC, THF, or NIN). Why doesn't that get you in the gut?


How goddamned dumb are people that they honestly think they're competing with the other melee jobs for DPS? There is no competition. If you want damage, you bring SAM. Reasons to bring other melee include:
1) You can't find a Tsurumaru (or better) SAM, so you bring a job that buffs the SAM indirectly in some way (DRG, DNC)
2) You can't find a Tsurumaru (or better) SAM, so you sacrifice the DPS and get a mythic heavy DD (WAR, DRK, DRG).
3) Pity (Q.Q)
4) TH (THF)


^ See? The only category DNC and THF compete in is the pity category.