Useless spells

[Selindrile]

At any given time, there was generally only ONE reason to invite a RDM, currently, that reason is Haste II, previously in the past it has been different things, mostly one at a time, whether it be Refresh or Gravity or Phalanx II or Dia III, this is not good design, these abilities do not generally work together to form an interesting whole, interesting choices at their core etc etc. Right now we invite Rdms because they have Haste II, and they can replace Sch's job of stunning reasonably well.

Sure Rdm can function as support in melee, heck, so can Whm, but it's way less efficient to do so, mostly because of the AoE moves of monsters slowing down your reaction time for your primary jobs, requiring healing and supporting yourself, etc putting such a job with a ton of support juggling into melee was never really thought out well design wise, which is the same trap that is the downfall of Dnc, despite them being much more interesting, design wise. It was already stated though that what is well thought out in the design realm doesn't always translate into ingame usefulness. Composure itself is a neat design choice, choosing between recast timers and lengthened buffs is actually a choice in the present day (primarily Haste II length VS Stun recast) but it wasn't really always.

Shaman was at some point in history a wonderfully successful support, Innervate added a lot to a party (much like Refresh), as later they were a Heroism whore, though that was much like Rdm, a one-trick pony, they could melee far more efficiently than other support mages, throw some heals and buff many jobs. I'm not sure their current state, admittedly, I haven't played WoW in some time, but they were very popular in a support role, and very "successful" by that standard. And in fairness Rdm has certainly had their ups and downs, even in recent history. In the Aby era they were a Phalanx source for cleaves, in VW era they were basically unused Chainspell Stun onry on a couple mobs, in early delve they were basically there to land blind on Kuku and dispel Kurma's Defense Boost before everyone had as much Macc, then they fell by the wayside until Haste II and Flurry came out. You can hardly call Rdm generically successful, and definitely not from a design perspective, they've had a lot of ups and downs, as have most jobs, but they definitely aren't a shining example of design.

Well designed jobs are one who display interactivity, dependancy, and synergy between ones' abilities. "Well Balanced" and "Well Designed" are two different things, I never said anything about Rdm not being balanced with a melee job having anything to do with anything. Drg for example is a relatively weak overall job, but wyvern differences depending on subjob, spells from other jobs triggering a wyvern's abilities, wses removing debuffs, or being more offensive in nature with other subjobs and of course the wyvern levelling up, ability to grant your wyvern your buffs, these things are interesting, they were ultimately underpowered by and large, but that doesn't make them poorly designed, only poorly balanced.

[Dale]

At any given time, there was generally only ONE reason to invite a RDM, currently, that reason is Haste II, previously in the past it has been different things, mostly one at a time, whether it be Refresh or Gravity or Phalanx II or Dia III, this is not good design, these abilities do not generally work together to form an interesting whole, interesting choices at their core etc etc. Right now we invite Rdms because they have Haste II, and they can replace Sch's job of stunning reasonably well.

Sure Rdm can function as support in melee, heck, so can Whm, but it's way less efficient to do so, mostly because of the AoE moves of monsters slowing down your reaction time for your primary jobs, requiring healing and supporting yourself, etc putting such a job with a ton of support juggling into melee was never really thought out well design wise, which is the same trap that is the downfall of Dnc, despite them being much more interesting, design wise. It was already stated though that what is well thought out in the design realm doesn't always translate into ingame usefulness. Composure itself is a neat design choice, choosing between recast timers and lengthened buffs is actually a choice in the present day (primarily Haste II length VS Stun recast) but it wasn't really always.

Shaman was at some point in history a wonderfully successful support, Innervate added a lot to a party (much like Refresh), as later they were a Heroism whore, though that was much like Rdm, a one-trick pony, they could melee far more efficiently than other support mages, throw some heals and buff many jobs. I'm not sure their current state, admittedly, I haven't played WoW in some time, but they were very popular in a support role, and very "successful" by that standard. And in fairness Rdm has certainly had their ups and downs, even in recent history. In the Aby era they were a Phalanx source for cleaves, in VW era they were basically unused Chainspell Stun onry on a couple mobs, in early delve they were basically there to land blind on Kuku and dispel Kurma's Defense Boost before everyone had as much Macc, then they fell by the wayside until Haste II and Flurry came out. You can hardly call Rdm generically successful, and definitely not from a design perspective, they've had a lot of ups and downs, as have most jobs, but they definitely aren't a shining example of design.

Well designed jobs are one who display interactivity, dependancy, and synergy between's ones' abilities. "Well Balanced" and "Well Designed" are two different things, I never said anything about Rdm not being balanced with a melee job having anything to do with anything. Drg for example is a relatively weak overall job, but wyvern differences depending on subjob, spells from other jobs triggering a wyvern's abilities, wses removing debuffs, or being more offensive in nature with other subjobs and of course the wyvern levelling up, ability to grant your wyvern your buffs, these things are interesting, they were ultimately underpowered by and large, but that doesn't make them poorly designed, only poorly balanced.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point because I do believe Red Mage to be an accomplishment in design. It has evolved extremely well on this game and I've seen a job I used to loath quite possibly become my favorite.

They have unique and powerful buffs useful to both casters and melee while still maintaining modest offensive and defensive capabilities for themselves. To me that is what a support job requires to maintain relevance. Rather you call it design or balance is a matter of semantics I think.

As far as what used to be in the past you may or may not be right. I am speaking terms of the present only and don't wish to debate the way things used to be. I agreed with you the job was not well designed from the beginning and many of your points about past problems are well-taken.

On a side not: I have no idea why you think Dragoon is a weak class. In the right hands that job is insane - especially with some Red Mage support ^^

[Malithar]

They have unique and powerful buffs useful to both casters and melee

Such as?

At best, Haste II saves your Brd from singing one March, at worst, it adds nothing further since we're already capping magical haste. Refresh II is always nifty but largely unneeded. Dia III is lackluster in a world with Geo-Frailty, though it doesn't hurt. Distract and Frazzle II aren't bad, but those alone aren't enough to suddenly make Rdm sought after, specially when Brd's Madrigals or Geo's Precision/Torpor do more. The only unique buff Rdm has that'd I'd consider them for a slot for is Flurry II in a Rng setup, even more so if it's a fight where a Whm isn't needed.

I used to be a fan of what Rdm was capable of doing, the various options it had. Now, honestly, just go play Geo/Rdm and melee. Depending on the content, your (as well as your parties) damage will greatly benefit from Geo/Indi Frailty + Fury. /Rdm affords you the ability to keep a Haste/Flurry/Refresh rotation, spot cures, Dia II, and the full line of tier 1 debuffs, if any of that's needed, if not, get on the front lines and make things actually die faster. Rdm just has far too much to do to melee effectively, and the things it has available to do are generally too ineffective to be of real worth, beyond Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh.

[Dale]

Such as?

At best, Haste II saves your Brd from singing one March, at worst, it adds nothing further since we're already capping magical haste. Refresh II is always nifty but largely unneeded. Dia III is lackluster in a world with Geo-Frailty, though it doesn't hurt. Distract and Frazzle II aren't bad, but those alone aren't enough to suddenly make Rdm sought after, specially when Brd's Madrigals or Geo's Precision/Torpor do more. The only unique buff Rdm has that'd I'd consider them for a slot for is Flurry II in a Rng setup, even more so if it's a fight where a Whm isn't needed.

I used to be a fan of what Rdm was capable of doing, the various options it had. Now, honestly, just go play Geo/Rdm and melee. Depending on the content, your (as well as your parties) damage will greatly benefit from Geo/Indi Frailty + Fury. /Rdm affords you the ability to keep a Haste/Flurry/Refresh rotation, spot cures, Dia II, and the full line of tier 1 debuffs, if any of that's needed, if not, get on the front lines and make things actually die faster. Rdm just has far too much to do to melee effectively, and the things it has available to do are generally too ineffective to be of real worth, beyond Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh.

You just went through a whole list of examples then discredited them with what I would consider a very dubious logic.

For example, you admit refresh 2 is nifty, but then say it's unneeded. Well, you can make that argument about everything I suppose. As nothing red mage has is really needed, because it is possible to defeat enemies without them. Red Mages are their to support and make things easier for the group or pitch hit for other roles (though to a lesser degree) when they are not available. They aren't a must have .

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't find your reasons convincing. You admit they have a lot of good stuff. But then you explain why they aren't needed or other jobs can do similar effects. If you want to find a reason to find fault with something bad enough, you can. And people who want to stand out (a phrase I keep seeing in the rdm forums) and provide an essential role probably shouldn't play a support class, because they are probably always going to feel inadequate being one.

Yes bard can haste as well. But they are a support class too. So is a Geomancer. To imply Red Mages aren't good because they have spells similar to other support classes that fill the same role doesn't make much sense to me. That's like saying there is a problem with a monk because a warrior can do damage too.

I also take issue with you saying the only thing of worth a Red Mage has is Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh. To me that is selling this job short. But as I told that other guy, you are entitled to your opinion and I don't see the point in arguing it cause I doubt either of us are going to change our minds. Just for me to get my point across and let the developers know that I am impressed with what they have done with this job is good enough for me.