Contradance and Steps

[Ataraxia]

As someone who plays DNC, and plays it well, I can say that DNC is a very viable addition to end-game content. In Skirmishes, we can tear things up, provide spot-healing to take some pressure off the WHMs when AoE attacks land with Divine Waltz (my waltz setup can restore 600+ HP with DW2, 770+ with CW3), and use our steps to enfeeble the mobs. Just last night, I was in an AA party. We tore up the MR, EV, and TT (on normal, but still not anywhere near easy). I've also done extremely well in Alluvion Skirmish and Outer Ra'Kaznar Skirmish, as being on the move and still being able to heal is a big advantage in those events.

The biggest issue, that I see, with DNC is that it is a job that can very well perform in the top-tier, I find myself often out-parsing SAMs, but it takes a player who knows how to play the job, and can shift with the flow of battle to what is needed in the moment.

I been DNC since 75 cap. I do not believe you can out-parsing a SAM when DNC can't even out-parse a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG, RNG. The Samurai must of been really lazy to get out-parse by a DNC. With Current update to weapon skill damage you can not out-parse these DD listed and believe me when i say this because i tried. I believe a THF can pretty much out damage a DNC. You can test this for yourself when you do Morta VW shout and see what i'm talking about or do a Delve boss run. :/

Unless a miracle happen and Akihiko Matsui decided to lower Climactic Flourish JA to 30 second and fix Striking Flourish / Ternary Flourish than just maybe DNC can reach a 90% DD while other job like SAM, WAR, DRK, DRG, RNG will be 100%. I will currently rate DNC below a THF since THF can resort to sneak attack + Rudra's storm every 1 minute or use trick attack + Rudra's storm when sneak attack is down and it does a lot of damage. DNC is indeed a good support role but why would anyone invite us when they can get a geo, rdm or even a sch with current update to RDM and GEO they would prefer those job. If they wanted DD they probably go for Sam or Mnk. So if anyone want to be a DNC in event is to be Leader and go DNC =) "But be careful that you don't make a fool out of yourself in high level content and fail because they most likely blame DNC"

[Astrael]

I been DNC since 75 cap. I do not believe you can out-parsing a SAM when DNC can't even out-parse a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG, RNG. The Samurai must of been really lazy to get out-parse by a DNC. With Current update to weapon skill damage you can not out-parse these DD listed and believe me when i say this because i tried. I believe a THF can pretty much out damage a DNC. You can test this for yourself when you do Morta VW shout and see what i'm talking about or do a Delve boss run. :/

True, DNC isn't going to win parses typically, but for Muyingwa and Cailimh Delve it can and has outparsed all but decent SAM (just from raw WS damage/skillchains) and decent RNG while skipping (most) support heals. However it is able to hold its own and remain competitive in a lot of content, for example: recently did 5-man run Dakuwaqa (MNK DNC WHM RDM and 2-song BRD mule) where my DNC still managed 43% of the total damage parse on a mob that favors MNK half the time even while playing very defensively with heals and riding Fan Dance. With Grand Pas, you can essentially destroy the piercing-weak phases for Tojil and Daku with a 4-5 part level 4 skillchain (if allowed to) or just multiple skillchains if other DDs are WSing in the middle.

[FrankReynolds]

Stuff...

I'm not even gonna debate you on what dnc can and can't do. If you think dnc is okay, then by all means keep telling the developers how great it is. I'm sure they would be happy to never update it again.

[Astrael]

I'm not even gonna debate you on what dnc can and can't do. If you think dnc is okay, then by all means keep telling the developers how great it is. I'm sure they would be happy to never update it again.

Nah, that was never my intent, I'm fully aware how it stacks against other jobs in core party roles and where it needs help to get invites. But all I've been concerned with in posting here is my view on these two updates since that's the topic of the thread (I like the fact they are coming and I can make use of them) and clarify some information. If my post count is any indication, I would rather just sit back and let others debate these points, but DNC doesn't seem to have many applied endgame perspectives discussed in these threads.

Realistically: I want them to re-evaluate Finishing Moves/Flourishes (especially Flourishes III), and dagger WS damage clearly needs more work (possibly adding attack bonuses across the board, as both DNC and THF have low base attack). Job ability delay reduction or elimination would be amazing, but I don't believe it would be a DNC-only adjustment if they went forward with that.

[Ataraxia]

I'm not even gonna debate you on what dnc can and can't do. If you think dnc is okay, then by all means keep telling the developers how great it is. I'm sure they would be happy to never update it again.

how right you are about that Frank.

[Ataraxia]

True, DNC isn't going to win parses typically, but for Muyingwa and Cailimh Delve it can and has outparsed all but decent SAM (just from raw WS damage/skillchains) and decent RNG while skipping (most) support heals. However it is able to hold its own and remain competitive in a lot of content, for example: recently did 5-man run Dakuwaqa (MNK DNC WHM RDM and 2-song BRD mule) where my DNC still managed 43% of the total damage parse on a mob that favors MNK half the time even while playing very defensively with heals and riding Fan Dance. With Grand Pas, you can essentially destroy the piercing-weak phases for Tojil and Daku with a 4-5 part level 4 skillchain (if allowed to) or just multiple skillchains if other DDs are WSing in the middle.

I notice your set up have a WHM, RDM and BRD with that kind of set i don't think you need a DNC at all because you have enough healing already with RDM . Most delve run i seen 1 WHM was able to heal up to 3 DD as long as their a bard present and these old delve run was clear 1-5 nm + boss with that set up. Now what i want to know is that set you did was 1-5 NM + boss or you remove some of the NM using bead? yes when it comes to Muyingwa and Cailimh DNC can do a lot of damage but what do you say about Dragoon and Ranger when their damage is also Piercing? DNC loses more than they win. With this update coming for dragoon they would rather invite a Dragoon or a Ranger relic than invite a DNC. In some cases when dealing with Cailimh a lot of set up involve Main Tank as PLD or RUN Fencer and the rest of set up is usually ranger. It easier to heal only one tank in the battle field. If you add DNC to the mix than you gonna heal DNC too but can a DNC really hold hate on Cailimh better than a PLD or RUN? i doubt it. So in the end it only works if you are able to set up a run and bring that job DNC otherwise it's not gonna happen.
I like DNC to be a popular job so people can appreciate it and invite in shout as well as LS event. Lucky for you that you set up your own run and get to bring DNC along to make a point that it does work but how do you make people understand that your good with your job as DNC and you want to tell them that it works? I'll make a list of job and compare it to DNC and i like to see what everyone think.

Dragoon = Angon instant 25% defense down and pet damage while DNC have to build level 10 steps to have that effect for defense down.
Red Mage = Haste II, Dia III, it can use Distract II remove 50 evasion and Frazzle II remove maybe 50 magic evasion. Those spell are almost instant. As for DNC they need to level 10 quickstep reduce evasion by 44?
Geomancer = Geo haste, elemental magic, Debuff compare to RDM is double the effect with recent update to GEO.

I won't bring up Bard or COR since those job has completely beaten every event you can name in FFXI since 75 cap and even now 119 item level and there is nothing going to stop them. I'm looking forward to this update to DNC and I hope it's not the end of it. If you haven't seen this video yet Astrael be sure to check it out.

Taru user name is Casas Casa and here is his youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZAx9hC0O7g

[Astrael]

Grudgingly getting into semantics, it only takes 30 seconds to get to a level 5 step (but another minute from there to get to level 10).

Pull [0:00] > Level 2 (Precharged Presto) [Def-7% or Evasion-12 or Crit+4%]
[0:15] > Level 3 [Def-9% or Evasion-16 or Crit+5%]
[0:30] > Level 5 (Presto) [Def-13% or Evasion-24 or Crit+7%]

This is our current state pre-update. On fodder mobs--the only actual things that don't take longer than 30 seconds to kill--I would just be going full DD Saber Dance anyways with just the initial step to charge Finishing Moves when needed. This update isn't meant for those kinds of fights though, because no one is really worried about debuffing fodder.

[0:45] > Level 6 [Def-15% or Evasion-28 or Crit+8%]
[1:00] > Level 8 (Presto) [Def-19% or Evasion-36 or Crit+10%]
[1:15] > Level 9 [Def-21% or Evasion-40 or Crit+11%]
[1:30] > Level 10 [Def-23% or Evasion-44 or Crit+12%]

[3:30] > Level 2 (Presto) *assuming the 2 minute duration extension remains

Realistically, most Delve boss fights and D/VD high-tier battlefields are not over in 1.5 minutes without some serious gear and job optimization and even then. But, we may as well discuss what role several other jobs have if we're going that far in our assessment of what is optimal or not. Steps may not be a fulltime debuff at maximum potency but level 10 is still easily attainable and will last the duration of a presumed "quick" boss NM fight. At the 45 second marker of a fight is the moment the update takes effect. If the battle does last longer than Step duration of 2 minutes (at the 3:30 mark), then arguments against the update due to battle duration become moot because the fight is long enough for DNC's debuffs to make a difference. Furthermore, the time it takes to reach level 10 can be partially mitigated by any other job going /DNC (such as COR) to help elevate the 1-5 Step level, eliminating 15-30 seconds worth of wait.

Addressing Contradance, it go without saying but DNC by design is not a job that you slot in to fill a sole healer role unless it is content with literally no or light AOE damage. As far as I've been playing it, it is primarily a DD (sometimes tank) that is able to adapt quickly and supports the backline with arguably the fastest first-response heals in critical situations/heavy debuffs while supplying enhanced stat down. It is not a slouch in DD by any means with the ability to self-skillchain every 2 steps applied in the above pattern (and it is more than capable of getting 1000+ free TP between Reverse Flourishes even with job ability delays and an occasional healing waltz in that time). But with Contradance, it can do one of two major things once a fight: fully heal the party with Divine Waltz II or erase a whole party's worth of debuffs, which saves the WHM time especially if non-mythic and JA timers are down for Accession. In my experience DNC only gets crippled as a healer when Amnesia'd or Paralyzed, due to it eating job ability timers (which is the one thing I really wish they'd address).

As Liteholt said, DNC is a challenging job that takes excellent timing to play well. But it can perform/assist in any capacity and actually serves to make most fights simply easier and due to it being surprisingly very hard to kill can make the difference between a win or loss (as I have demonstrated several times in delve/KI fights). These updates may not be low effort, but they've still got uses in content that matters and I'm looking forward to them. Now just to wait for their addressing of the Finishing Move system (one of the last things they claimed DNC was having adjusted).

[Astrael]

Actually the RDM was there for stuns/nukes only that run, we were testing out Stun recast timers and resist rates before it actually became a thing, so he wasn't there for healing at all. The run was a full 1-5+Boss.

Part of your criticism highlights why people don't use DNC, because it's a hybrid job that isn't specifically a healer, or a debuffer. It's probably not meant to be the best at any of those or even DD, but it does enhance or partner up the effect of the jobs that are. For example, you list superior debuff jobs, but neglect to point out that DNC's debuffs are unresistable, long duration, AND stackable with all the effects detailed. Now, if the only way to "fix" DNC is to make it have one strict primary role, then I don't see any way to do it without crippling its DD ability further, otherwise risking it becoming overpowered. Something would have to give for it to be a top choice in any of the primary roles. Still, I should point out, the less I have to heal, if at all, the stronger DNC becomes as a DD.

Also, I've solo tanked Cailimh on DNC/RUN. No need for PLD or RUN main if your character is geared specifically for it. With Fan Dance, Flash, strong single+area heals and fast attacks with decent dps, it can hold hate just fine. If anything, I forget Animated Flourish even exists and can resort to that if necessary. No, it wasn't easy, but DNC is a lot of work by design.

I've seen the video, and hear similar stories since the WS/skillchain update, but this goes to one of my earlier comments. After a certain point, this becomes less about DNC specifically and more about the question: why even bother with any jobs but the ones clearing content that fast? Which quickly evolves to: why even play the game? All I can add at this point is I'm not theorycrafting here; this all comes from actual experience (to the point people actually prefer me coming DNC to events when I have a very strong relic DRK).

[Ataraxia]

[QUOTE=Astrael;522811]Actually the RDM was there for stuns/nukes only that run, we were testing out Stun recast timers and resist rates before it actually became a thing, so he wasn't there for healing at all. The run was a full 1-5+Boss.

Also, I've solo tanked Cailimh on DNC/RUN. No need for PLD or RUN main if your character is geared specifically for it. With Fan Dance, Flash, strong single+area heals and fast attacks with decent dps, it can hold hate just fine. If anything, I forget Animated Flourish even exists and can resort to that if necessary. No, it wasn't easy, but DNC is a lot of work by design.

I did not think it was possible to do a delve with a DNC and that you point out it can do 1-5+ boss. I have a few question so when you said you Solo Tank Cailmh as DNC/RUN and there wasn't PLD or RUN present and this is actually 1-5 + boss and this set up of yours DNC tank so it work out? Did you get to use song from bard Sentinel's Scherzo or you just tank it straight up using Fan Dance. I think you should probably make a video on youtube than because if you can do this with DNC i'm sure everyone like to know how cool it is to set up a PT. About the video i posted those people clear content level 128 in 15 minute and i was hoping in other zone if they had a DNC set up can they clear it less than 30 minute? maybe not sure if that is even possible with DNC. Here in Odin some of the best LS have only clear less than 20 minute which is really good there was no DNC presented. The video i posted was not meant for you think about clearing content fast but for you to understand that party leader want performance and they will invite those Job that can get it done fast with less risk. Astrael manage to do some difficult content and clear them with DNC so that means SE should focus more on job that really fall behind like a BST and SMN. In conclusion, DNC job working as intended by Dev Team doesn't need an update at all and that some people do not know how to really use this JOB properly the end. :/

[Byrth]

So, this morning I made a group to do 5/5/5 Cirdas Skirmish II on my DNC. Our party was DNC, NIN, MNK, SMN, WHM, RDM (the people on LS at 9AM EST playing the jobs they were already on). I did damage, kept NMs debuffed heavily, Waltzed when appropriate, and stunned Bugard (who was the only one I found I could reliably stun). I ended up parsing first with 33.4% of alliance damage (including skillchains). The NIN was 33.0% (also including skillchains), and the rest was MNK (26%?) and the Avatars (~7% combined?). It worked. We beat the Caturae boss and cleared something like 6 floors, but had to use our keys with a Cairn up (probably to warp to the last floor.) If I had gone with a more traditional setup instead of making an intentionally sub-ideal group (DDs that can cap delay with Haste II + Haste Samba) for the sake of getting my DNC some playtime, it's possible that we would have also beaten the last floor.

A few other things of note:
* The NIN just reactivated after something like 4 months. I don't think he has any upgraded relic yet (though he has a 119 Nagi). He is not used to focusing on skillchaining yet, which is unfortunate because his 6k Blade: Hi-s would have made some really pretty double darknesses and he easily could have outparsed me.
* I ate Sharkfin Soup. I'm pretty sure the other melees were either eating RCBs or nothing. As a consequence, I was the only melee with capped hit rate.
* The SMN had Nirvana.
* Our Mistmaw kills averaged about 90 seconds, meaning that the proposed Step changes would allow me to average of -14% Defense Down instead of the average -11.3% defense down that we currently enjoy. That extra 2.7% Defense Down costs me another 30 TP and ~8 seconds of JA delay.
* The Caturae took us about 5 minutes to kill (our first encounter). In this situation, the extra levels would have been worthwhile. You have to understand, however, that you will eventually reach the annoying situation of being forced to maintain Dazes in exchange for a single Finishing Move, which will further gimp your damage. Now it'll be a much larger penalty to let your debuff wear off. It's not 30 seconds to re-cap it. It's 1.5 minutes.




As far as the proposed Dancer changes, you can see how the Step changes would have been impotent/useless above. If I'd had Contradance, I probably would have used it a few times when Waltzing, as I indicate in the OP. The issue is that neither of these changes address any of the real problems with Dancer, and you can see that the Step changes will largely have no impact at all.