"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[Afania]

An easy example is bard. People constantly complain both in game an on this forum about people singing everything with terpander and empyrian gear. That's an obvious bad move, because you can easily see the harp and gear while they are singing, but the same thing happens a million times every day on every job. There's that monk who doesn't swap to empy body for weapon skills when impetus is up. theres that one that does swap to it even if he just missed the last hit. there's a million shades of grey.

Sometimes ppl don't swap to specific gears because they don't have them/choose not to get them.

A
You can call it stupid or experience or macros or scripts or whatever you want, but it's all skill in one form or another and it varies from player to player. As good as my gear and your gear makes us, I guarantee there's someone out there who thinks we suck.

I don't think other ppl's opinion matter in this discussion though, anyone can find a million reasons to complain another player suck......again being good or bad is subjective.

It actually was.

I didn't say a thing about mythic should drop from AA fight, nor reward from AA solo.

You said that your building a mythic was the same as my AA clear. I know it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed it out. If they were anywhere near the same, they would or should have a similar reward. They are not the same. They have completely different rewards and are done for completely different reasons.

They're done to satisfy the need for accomplishment, and it's not done by everyone, in that aspect it's the same. You keep talking about the reward, I was talking the motivation to do it.

You think it's different because my motivation already being twisted into something else by you, lol.

In (your) theory, yes. But in practice, NO. Just like reading a book on karate doesn't make you a black belt, reading about how to be a good bard doesn't make it so. You're crazy if you think it does. I've read all those scripts and things on the forums. I have needs they don't meet. They make things easier, but they definitely don't do all the work. And to be honest, my macros are different from yours. Just looking at them would probably freak you out. Making macros is in and of itself a skill.

You're comparing real life skill with FFXI jobs, which isn't even comparable. As long as you're using standard Karate equipment(not wearing an armor etc) in a competition, your performance is mostly based on skill. Wearing different karate equipment doesn't change your performance as much.

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

[FrankReynolds]

Sometimes ppl don't swap to specific gears because they don't have them/choose not to get them.

Sometimes....

I don't think other ppl's opinion matter in this discussion though, anyone can find a million reasons to complain another player suck......again being good or bad is subjective.

You said gear was the only determining factor in performance....

I didn't say a thing about mythic should drop from AA fight, nor reward from AA solo.

Oh, well then I guess we agree that soloing and AA is in no way the same as building a mythic. Glad we cleared that up.

They're done to satisfy the need for accomplishment, and it's not done by everyone, in that aspect it's the same. You keep talking about the reward, I was talking the motivation to do it.

You think it's different because my motivation already being twisted into something else by you, lol.

You put it in writing. This isn't europe. The internet never forgets.

You're comparing real life skill with FFXI jobs, which isn't even comparable. As long as you're using standard Karate equipment(not wearing an armor etc) in a competition, your performance is mostly based on skill. Wearing different karate equipment doesn't change your performance as much.

Neither does reading a wiki about it.

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

[Afania]

Precisely this.

You can read everything there is on how to gear your job properly. You can then go and get all that gear and set all the macros up just like you were told, but just because your SCH (as an example) has all the best gear for stunning, doesn't mean that you're skillful enough to actually stun a TP move.

And that applies to hitting your -PDT/MDT macros when a big TP move is being readied, too. Or not using your WS in the middle of a SAM or BLU's self-SC or any other job using sekanokki.

Nor does it mean that you're not going to be 'that guy' that runs in to a particularly hard fight and hits your 2 hour immediately and ends up ketting yourself killed before you've had a chance to use it fully because you didn't let the tank take hate, or whatever. Or you get the WHM killed because they're spamming cures on your to keep you alive, or they just run out of MP after 30 secs.

Fine, let's say "stunning TP move" is a skill as you wish. Mrkillface's goal is to play "better than everyone else with better skill". If you can stun TP move, another SCH can also stun TP move, you don't really play better than him.....unless you have better gear that allows you to do other aspect better?

I honestly don't understand the logic behind "I wanna play better than everyone else but I don't care about gear". It simply doesn't make sense in a MMORPG.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Swords in Karate....whhaaaat? Karate in Japanese means "empty handed", so you don't hold weapons when you fight. Again if you like to argue about something, at least do some research about it.....

[Demonjustin]

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Swords in Karate....whhaaaat? Karate in Japanese means "empty handed", so you don't hold weapons when you fight. Again if you like to argue about something, at least do some research about it.....

Ok here, I'll change things up for ya real quick so the argument makes more sense since we're sitting here arguing semantics.

In kendo/kenjutsu if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Better?



I know this is likely pointless to do but may I ask a favor? If we're going to sit here and argue about something in a game being changed can we at least carry on the argument in a meaningful way? Getting off topic every five posts, dodging questions via semantical arguments, or simply trying to argue like children playing your "cards" against one another is really getting no where. If we're going to waste time, can we at least make the time wasted a bit more meaningful? As it stands this debate seems very facepalm worthy.

[Afania]

Ok here, I'll change things up for ya real quick so the argument makes more sense since we're sitting here arguing semantics.

Better?



I know this is likely pointless to do but may I ask a favor? If we're going to sit here and argue about something in a game being changed can we at least carry on the argument in a meaningful way? Getting off topic every five posts, dodging questions via semantical arguments, or simply trying to argue like children playing your "cards" against one another is really getting no where. If we're going to waste time, can we at least make the time wasted a bit more meaningful? As it stands this debate seems very facepalm worthy.

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

[FrankReynolds]

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

My playing well doesn't harm anyone. Not having access to gear does.

[Demonjustin]

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

I'm not pointing fingers because in all honesty I don't care. I've hardly paid attention at this point to much of this at all. The part I have paid attention to is that it's all getting fairly poor, both of you to some extent could be seen as acting at very least a bit childish. That's part of why I made a point of requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one. If we just continue how this has been going then SE will ignore it all, the topic will continue to be derailed but even more meaninglessly, and neither side will come away caring about the outcome of it all nor will they have learnt anything. I find debates like those to be pointless wastes of time.

[Afania]

My playing well doesn't harm anyone. Not having access to gear does.

Not having access to gear doesn't harm anyone lol. You don't get hurt, you don't starve, you just.....don't have certain pixel item/accomplishment in a video game. After you log off you still have your family, friends and job, not having a pixel item/accomplishment won't affect you a bit. What harm does that do?

Video game needs accomplishment so players are willing to pay monthly fee, but players doesn't NEED accomplishment in a video game to survive, you're getting it wrong. If this game has no accomplishment that I'm interested in I'd just click cancel sub button, if I don't have certain shiny in this game I wouldn't feel unhappy about it.

I'm not pointing fingers because in all honesty I don't care. I've hardly paid attention at this point to much of this at all. The part I have paid attention to is that it's all getting fairly poor, both of you to some extent could be seen as acting at very least a bit childish. That's part of why I made a point of requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one. If we just continue how this has been going then SE will ignore it all, the topic will continue to be derailed but even more meaninglessly, and neither side will come away caring about the outcome of it all nor will they have learnt anything. I find debates like those to be pointless wastes of time.

Only if Mrkillface stop downplaying my motivation into something else and think so high of his own motivation!

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

[Demonjustin]

I'm almost never happy, but that's beside the point. In all honesty part of what you just did is why I said this is childish.

Only if Mrkillface stop downplaying my motivation into something else and think so high of his own motivation!

More or less finger pointing, saying "he did it first!", and attempting to justify poorly constructed replies by claiming their replies are what led to the degradation of your own. Not trying to come off like a pretentious prick but if you want to have a real debate the best way isn't to set the bar only as high as the person you're debating sets it for you. If you take it seriously and they do such things then anyone coming in such as myself can easily tell who's acting like a child in the situation. If you see someone acting like a child and as a result allow that mindset to consume your own then you've only allowed the debate to degrade into a childish argument and killed any chance you had to maintain a more serious position, especially to those looking in on it from the outside.

This is why I'm not pointing fingers, I quite honestly don't care who began to misinterpreted the other's argument, it's of no importance. You both allowed what could have been a decent debate about something in the game become a semantical argument over stupid BS, such as when an example of Karate is made and in return, ignoring the point of the comment, it's pointed out that Karate doesn't involve swords. People on these forums and how they debate things annoys the hell out of me quite frankly, I mean hell, we have another thread which over the last week had become an argument about the word vanilla. Really, we have a forum for a game, and we're arguing about the meaning of the word vanilla. Why is it so hard to just take an argument at face value and reply to it, and if your argument is misunderstood then attempt to correct the misunderstanding by better asserting your point? I've argued with people on here for a few years now and learnt quite a bit in doing so, but looking at it now it feels kinda pathetic being part of a community that has such a hard time entertaining a thought for more than 10 posts without someone derailing it into something completely meaningless and stupid or turning it into a battle of who can better dodge points and misinterpreted arguments made against them...

I you're right though. I'm not happy, I'm disappointed in the community I've become a part of over the last few years.

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

There's no victory in telling a community no constantly or ignoring them. Neither one will ever lead to happy people. Both of those things are what we've gotten. In the past it was ignoring every thread practically with only 1/10 possibly getting a reply, most of which were either an answer of "no" or "not at the moment". You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is happy with either of these results. While I'm not going to say all suggestions are equal or most suggestions should be implemented, surely more than 5% of suggestions are worth at least considering... When our response is almost always nearly identical to our last and they all look like they follow some sort of copy paste formula that could be filled out by simply reading the title of the thread, a few lines of the OP, and then hitting "Post Reply" when finished, it's no wonder people aren't happy about it.

While this thread didn't have much of anywhere to go in terms of an actual topic, it did have a point to make, and I think it did it well. Continuing to post here even off topic keeps that thought in mind as the name of the thread alone is enough to refresh in our minds just how often SE has told us this same thing, and continues to tell us it again every few days. So, derailing this topic isn't really a bad thing to me, had no where to go and we're keeping the thread and it's idea relevant, great thing to do when this argument would happen anyways in another thread in less than a week anyways but would serve less purpose at that point. So, while I disagree it has no purpose, I honestly don't mind a meaningful derail of it since it seems more beneficial than detrimental. My issue is only when the argument becomes so poor it's not only painful to watch/read but also getting no where at all.

[Olor]

There's no victory in telling a community no constantly or ignoring them. Neither one will ever lead to happy people. Both of those things are what we've gotten. In the past it was ignoring every thread practically with only 1/10 possibly getting a reply, most of which were either an answer of "no" or "not at the moment". You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is happy with either of these results. While I'm not going to say all suggestions are equal or most suggestions should be implemented, surely more than 5% of suggestions are worth at least considering... When our response is almost always nearly identical to our last and they all look like they follow some sort of copy paste formula that could be filled out by simply reading the title of the thread, a few lines of the OP, and then hitting "Post Reply" when finished, it's no wonder people aren't happy about it.

This. This so much. I think if we were at least given reasonable explanations for things, or even honest ones, then it might be different. But most of the time the reasons are nonsensical "we can't add those monsters as pets because they are scary!" or plain wrong "Knights of the Round is already very strong."

It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that most of the time we either get nonsense answers, the silent treatment, or a copy-paste non response. "There are no plans" is probably the worst pat answer I've ever seen. For the most part we were aware that there "were no plans" which is why we are suggesting the devs make plans. Then, most of the time that we do get real news, it is just translated from JP posts. It's insulting.