"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[FrankReynolds]

As for the rarity argument:

Rarity keeps people playing - handing out everything and making everything beyond easy drives people way a lot quicker because it's like getting a job starting as a janitor then becoming the CEO in 2 hours and then being fired an hour later only for the process to cycle with the next janitor that joins the company.

There's nothing..to truly work for when you're handed it. This is why Yoshida over on the XIV side admitted to designing that game with the knowledge of people will quit for up to 2 months after wearing out the content in a new patch because of how accessible it is and how easy it is to gear out with no rare items to obtain. You want some items to be rare in an MMO, it's not your single player game where rare items make no sense other than a forced grind.

I'm sure that nobody wants to read this entire thread at this point so I'll fill you in. No one asked for mythics to be handed out. We were talking about things like double ichor campaign days or removing the three person requirement from einherjar.

For some reason this afania person is okay with people spamming the events on multiple mules, but thinks the game would somehow be ruined if you could get the weapons even one day faster through double ichor campaigns and the like. I've been having some fun with it.

No cuz I know it isn't real "skill" that make me good at a job, but the gear....not just mythic(it's only one gear out of many), but mostly because the quality and amount of gears I have.

Look, I'm sure you aren't a bad player. In fact, I'm sure that you are quite good. But what you just said... I just...

Your definition of difficulty doesn't matter in this argument.

Okay... so is now the time when we just start posting gifs?

I can say "TBH it didn't really occur to me that other ppl may or may not have mythic, I just want finish a long term goal" when you twist my motivation into something else as well.

You could say that. You could say a lot of things that just plain aren't true. But you've already claimed to know how many people are making / own mythics and explained your motivation for making one in this thread so we would all know you were lying. You might as well say you ride a unicorn to your construction job on mars every day.

It doesn't matter how you really think, the point is that you did something not everyone can/would, and you feel accomplished. I made a decision to grind something not everyone would choose to do, and I feel accomplished as well.

This is fundamentally the same thing, if you can twist my motivation into "wanna be a cool kid in town", so I can do that too.

Mine took 30 minutes and I didn't get a mythic for it, but yeah. Basically the exact same thing.

So they should make mythics drop in AA fights? Is that what you're saying? /s

What you're saying isn't "skill", what you're saying is experience and pt organization. Experience helps makes better decision but it's not equal to skill, pt organization helps bringing the team together If I give my character to someone else and tell them which button to click in X situation, they can perform nearly the same. FFXI simply doesn't require skill, at least not as much as games like SF4.

skill noun
: the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice

A lot of relic owners parse lower than others mostly* because of wrong gear sets in wrong situation, which is still about gears. A lot of NQ players claiming "I parse higher than RME owners" either running in very good gear sets in other slot or use tools for faster macro speed. You can try to outparse a ilv119 RME owner using proper gear sets in lv 75 gear, it's gonna be very hard unless that RME owner is downright terrible at clicking WS macro.

One might say that you need..... wait for it...... skill?

I also have to point out, many players sometimes outparse RME owners due to luck or having more experience in said content(so they know how to build better gear sets for that specific content), then they act as if they just play that much better than another RME owner after winning parse one or two times, then they brag on the internet over and over about that. That doesn't necessary make skill a bigger factor affecting the performance in this game.

See the above definition of skill.

Gear sets, macro click speed/tools, experience and luck is the only factor affecting your performance in this game, there's a limit on how much you can improve.

See the above definition of skill.

[Afania]

Look, I'm sure you aren't a bad player. In fact, I'm sure that you are quite good. But what you just said... I just...

Well.....being good or bad at a job is subjective, so I don't actually give opinion about whether I'm good or bad at my job.

It is fact that there are many ppl told me "You're good at X job" (and vice versa......sometimes!) in my life. However, most of the time gear is the deciding factor, that's what I was saying. If I fail at doing something, it's mostly because I lack appropriate gear sets, if I parse high in an event, it's also mostly because of the gears.

I mean, there's a limit of how much dmg you can do with bad gear....and there's just nothing you can do about it. So how can gears not be the major factor affecting your performance?

Mine took 30 minutes and I didn't get a mythic for it, but yeah. Basically the exact same thing.

So they should make mythics drop in AA fights? Is that what you're saying? /s

That's not what I was saying at all.....

skill noun
: the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice



One might say that you need..... wait for it...... skill?



See the above definition of skill.



See the above definition of skill.

So by your logic, I can go read a forum, ask how to gear X job, and perform properly based on other ppl's experience and tell you "I'm a skilled player!"? Not convinced.

In FFXI you can basically just copy and paste gear sets from other ppl and do exactly the same thing.

Yet there are people who only have one set for their job and do better time after time vs a person with the best gear and multiple sets. Gear=skill has never been 100% true. Better gear just means you should be able to survive longer.

After many years playing FFXI, I have encountered many NQ player outparse RME owners, but I've never encounter "1 gear set" player play better than someone with multiple sets, unless they get lucky or something.

Personally, I'm not sure how can that even happen unless the "best gear and multiple sets" player can't even click macro properly....but seriously? - -

[FrankReynolds]

Well.....being good or bad at a job is subjective, so I don't actually give opinion about whether I'm good or bad at my job.

It is fact that there are many ppl told me "You're good at X job" (and vice versa......sometimes!) in my life. However, most of the time gear is the deciding factor, that's what I was saying. If I fail at doing something, it's mostly because I lack appropriate gear sets, if I parse high in an event, it's also mostly because of the gears.

I mean, there's a limit of how much dmg you can do with bad gear....and there's just nothing you can do about it. So how can gears not be the major factor affecting your performance?

An easy example is bard. People constantly complain both in game an on this forum about people singing everything with terpander and empyrian gear. That's an obvious bad move, because you can easily see the harp and gear while they are singing, but the same thing happens a million times every day on every job. There's that monk who doesn't swap to empy body for weapon skills when impetus is up. theres that one that does swap to it even if he just missed the last hit. there's a million shades of grey.

You can call it stupid or experience or macros or scripts or whatever you want, but it's all skill in one form or another and it varies from player to player. As good as my gear and your gear makes us, I guarantee there's someone out there who thinks we suck.

That's not what I was saying at all.....

It actually was.

This is fundamentally the same thing

You said that your building a mythic was the same as my AA clear. I know it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed it out. If they were anywhere near the same, they would or should have a similar reward. They are not the same. They have completely different rewards and are done for completely different reasons.

So by your logic, I can go read a forum, ask how to gear X job, and perform properly based on other ppl's experience and tell you "I'm a skilled player!"? Not convinced.

In FFXI you can basically just copy and paste gear sets from other ppl and do exactly the same thing.

First of all, I didn't say that at all, but...

In (your) theory, yes. But in practice, NO. Just like reading a book on karate doesn't make you a black belt, reading about how to be a good bard doesn't make it so. You're crazy if you think it does. I've read all those scripts and things on the forums. I have needs they don't meet. They make things easier, but they definitely don't do all the work. And to be honest, my macros are different from yours. Just looking at them would probably freak you out. Making macros is in and of itself a skill.

There is a funny book out there that says that the trick to flying is "to throw yourself at the ground ..... and miss". While fundamentally correct, I've yet to meet anyone who succeeded based on that.

[Afania]

An easy example is bard. People constantly complain both in game an on this forum about people singing everything with terpander and empyrian gear. That's an obvious bad move, because you can easily see the harp and gear while they are singing, but the same thing happens a million times every day on every job. There's that monk who doesn't swap to empy body for weapon skills when impetus is up. theres that one that does swap to it even if he just missed the last hit. there's a million shades of grey.

Sometimes ppl don't swap to specific gears because they don't have them/choose not to get them.

A
You can call it stupid or experience or macros or scripts or whatever you want, but it's all skill in one form or another and it varies from player to player. As good as my gear and your gear makes us, I guarantee there's someone out there who thinks we suck.

I don't think other ppl's opinion matter in this discussion though, anyone can find a million reasons to complain another player suck......again being good or bad is subjective.

It actually was.

I didn't say a thing about mythic should drop from AA fight, nor reward from AA solo.

You said that your building a mythic was the same as my AA clear. I know it's ridiculous. That's why I pointed it out. If they were anywhere near the same, they would or should have a similar reward. They are not the same. They have completely different rewards and are done for completely different reasons.

They're done to satisfy the need for accomplishment, and it's not done by everyone, in that aspect it's the same. You keep talking about the reward, I was talking the motivation to do it.

You think it's different because my motivation already being twisted into something else by you, lol.

In (your) theory, yes. But in practice, NO. Just like reading a book on karate doesn't make you a black belt, reading about how to be a good bard doesn't make it so. You're crazy if you think it does. I've read all those scripts and things on the forums. I have needs they don't meet. They make things easier, but they definitely don't do all the work. And to be honest, my macros are different from yours. Just looking at them would probably freak you out. Making macros is in and of itself a skill.

You're comparing real life skill with FFXI jobs, which isn't even comparable. As long as you're using standard Karate equipment(not wearing an armor etc) in a competition, your performance is mostly based on skill. Wearing different karate equipment doesn't change your performance as much.

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

[FrankReynolds]

Sometimes ppl don't swap to specific gears because they don't have them/choose not to get them.

Sometimes....

I don't think other ppl's opinion matter in this discussion though, anyone can find a million reasons to complain another player suck......again being good or bad is subjective.

You said gear was the only determining factor in performance....

I didn't say a thing about mythic should drop from AA fight, nor reward from AA solo.

Oh, well then I guess we agree that soloing and AA is in no way the same as building a mythic. Glad we cleared that up.

They're done to satisfy the need for accomplishment, and it's not done by everyone, in that aspect it's the same. You keep talking about the reward, I was talking the motivation to do it.

You think it's different because my motivation already being twisted into something else by you, lol.

You put it in writing. This isn't europe. The internet never forgets.

You're comparing real life skill with FFXI jobs, which isn't even comparable. As long as you're using standard Karate equipment(not wearing an armor etc) in a competition, your performance is mostly based on skill. Wearing different karate equipment doesn't change your performance as much.

Neither does reading a wiki about it.

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

[Afania]

Precisely this.

You can read everything there is on how to gear your job properly. You can then go and get all that gear and set all the macros up just like you were told, but just because your SCH (as an example) has all the best gear for stunning, doesn't mean that you're skillful enough to actually stun a TP move.

And that applies to hitting your -PDT/MDT macros when a big TP move is being readied, too. Or not using your WS in the middle of a SAM or BLU's self-SC or any other job using sekanokki.

Nor does it mean that you're not going to be 'that guy' that runs in to a particularly hard fight and hits your 2 hour immediately and ends up ketting yourself killed before you've had a chance to use it fully because you didn't let the tank take hate, or whatever. Or you get the WHM killed because they're spamming cures on your to keep you alive, or they just run out of MP after 30 secs.

Fine, let's say "stunning TP move" is a skill as you wish. Mrkillface's goal is to play "better than everyone else with better skill". If you can stun TP move, another SCH can also stun TP move, you don't really play better than him.....unless you have better gear that allows you to do other aspect better?

I honestly don't understand the logic behind "I wanna play better than everyone else but I don't care about gear". It simply doesn't make sense in a MMORPG.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Swords in Karate....whhaaaat? Karate in Japanese means "empty handed", so you don't hold weapons when you fight. Again if you like to argue about something, at least do some research about it.....

[Demonjustin]

In FFXI if you DD with Tsuru v.s another DD using hagun, there's a huge difference.

In karate if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Swords in Karate....whhaaaat? Karate in Japanese means "empty handed", so you don't hold weapons when you fight. Again if you like to argue about something, at least do some research about it.....

Ok here, I'll change things up for ya real quick so the argument makes more sense since we're sitting here arguing semantics.

In kendo/kenjutsu if you bring a plastic sword to a real sword fight, there is a huge difference.

Better?



I know this is likely pointless to do but may I ask a favor? If we're going to sit here and argue about something in a game being changed can we at least carry on the argument in a meaningful way? Getting off topic every five posts, dodging questions via semantical arguments, or simply trying to argue like children playing your "cards" against one another is really getting no where. If we're going to waste time, can we at least make the time wasted a bit more meaningful? As it stands this debate seems very facepalm worthy.

[Afania]

Ok here, I'll change things up for ya real quick so the argument makes more sense since we're sitting here arguing semantics.

Better?



I know this is likely pointless to do but may I ask a favor? If we're going to sit here and argue about something in a game being changed can we at least carry on the argument in a meaningful way? Getting off topic every five posts, dodging questions via semantical arguments, or simply trying to argue like children playing your "cards" against one another is really getting no where. If we're going to waste time, can we at least make the time wasted a bit more meaningful? As it stands this debate seems very facepalm worthy.

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

[FrankReynolds]

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

My playing well doesn't harm anyone. Not having access to gear does.

[Demonjustin]

It's not my fault that Mrkillface just want to argue for the sake of argument! I already said I can maybe accept the fact that FFXI requires some skill, I still don't understand how gear doesn't play a more important role that you can "play better than everyone else" without good gears. Also I don't understand why Mrkillface's opinion about "I want to play better than everyone else!" isn't the same as being the cool kid in town.

If anything it was Mrkillface that's dodging the questions lol.

I'm not pointing fingers because in all honesty I don't care. I've hardly paid attention at this point to much of this at all. The part I have paid attention to is that it's all getting fairly poor, both of you to some extent could be seen as acting at very least a bit childish. That's part of why I made a point of requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one. If we just continue how this has been going then SE will ignore it all, the topic will continue to be derailed but even more meaninglessly, and neither side will come away caring about the outcome of it all nor will they have learnt anything. I find debates like those to be pointless wastes of time.