"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[Camiie]

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

[Lithera]

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

The only problem though is SE made some of the mythics at least be the best weapon for a select few jobs. So the min/maxers will still call you gimped even if you have the best for said job in all but weapon because you don't have one. Also, yes you are underestimating the jerkass and unrealistic expectations of the community.

[Camiie]

The only problem though is SE made some of the mythics at least be the best weapon for a select few jobs. So the min/maxers will still call you gimped even if you have the best for said job in all but weapon because you don't have one. Also, yes you are underestimating the jerkass and unrealistic expectations of the community.

I guess in my (final) fantasy world if, say Ochain and Daurdabla, really were unobtainable by 99.99% of the player base then there would have had to be more viable alternatives to allow players to get stuff done. I realize that's starting to sort of happen now, but there was a long time where there really was no perceived second best in slot.

[detlef]

Putting rewards that 100% of your customers want in content that only 10% of your customers are entertained by enough and / or have time to actually do is pretty bad design. The reason is incredibly obvious. I agree. It really shouldn't take 5 pages to figure it out.

I tend to agree with a lot of your posts on these forums. But you keep arguing that:

A. The weapons are not strong enough to be worth the effort.
B. The effort is too great.
C. The grind is too boring.

Maybe you have another point that I missed. To address the strength of the weapons, Burtgang, Yagrush, Carnwenhan, and Nirvana provide incredibly unique and powerful attributes that will probably make them useable forever. Kogarasumaru, Ryunohige, Conquerer, Glanzfaust, and Kenkonken are all best in slot DD weapons. Laevateinn and Tupsimati are best in slot nuking and macc staves. I don't know where Liberator, Terpsichore, Tizona, Vajra, and Aymur stand in terms of DD potential but at least half of them are likely best in slot DD weapons, again with unique bonuses you can only find on here.

These are true ultimate weapons. Unique models (this matters to a lot of people, and there's nothing wrong with that), powerful performance. And I've already acknowledged that at some point they will be surpassed but the devs have assured us that they will allow them to be upgraded as the ilvl cap increases. The upgrade process might be easy. It might be so hard you piss blood. But if it's too annoying or difficult, the JPs will complain and they'll bring it back down. So I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Maybe that's not enough for you. But I'm reminded of your posts in the Alluvian Skirmish thread.

I don't care if it's instant gratification. I just want it to be guaranteed gratification. It doesn't have to take a day or two, but lets be realistic. If it's probably gonna get outclassed by something else in a month or two, it shouldn't cost a butt load of money and or time. Making an event take 3 hours and you're done or making an event where you do it forever and never get what you want are not the only options for keeping people interested.

Let's be honest here. Those 8~ million worth of stones you spent are probably gonna be wasted when they release the +1 version that wipes all your augments in September.

You know what Mythics are? Guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently by a +1 version in September.

I have much less to say about the magnitude and fun of the grind. I maintain that just like anyone can cook, anyone can make a Mythic. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of time it takes is a drop in the bucket, a mere fraction of the time you've spent playing FFXI. Demonjustin estimated 4-6 months. What's 4-6 months if you've played for 8 years?

The tasks can all be accomplished with a PT or less, which means that you can progress casually, at your own pace. Sure, Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul, and Assaults are all easy. But that means that anybody of any level can make progress. No gear check whatsoever. You can come back from a 5-year break, equip yourself in sparks gear, and make a Mythic if you want. As casually as you want.

[FrankReynolds]

I tend to agree with a lot of your posts on these forums. But you keep arguing that:

A. The weapons are not strong enough to be worth the effort.
B. The effort is too great.
C. The grind is too boring.

Maybe you have another point that I missed. To address the strength of the weapons, Burtgang, Yagrush, Carnwenhan, and Nirvana provide incredibly unique and powerful attributes that will probably make them useable forever. Kogarasumaru, Ryunohige, Conquerer, Glanzfaust, and Kenkonken are all best in slot DD weapons. Laevateinn and Tupsimati are best in slot nuking and macc staves. I don't know where Liberator, Terpsichore, Tizona, Vajra, and Aymur stand in terms of DD potential but at least half of them are likely best in slot DD weapons, again with unique bonuses you can only find on here.

These are true ultimate weapons. Unique models (this matters to a lot of people, and there's nothing wrong with that), powerful performance. And I've already acknowledged that at some point they will be surpassed but the devs have assured us that they will allow them to be upgraded as the ilvl cap increases. The upgrade process might be easy. It might be so hard you piss blood. But if it's too annoying or difficult, the JPs will complain and they'll bring it back down. So I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Being upgraded does not = staying best in class. You could very easily see a dagger from new content that gives +60% song duration and Carnwenhan only getting bumped up to 55%. They said they would be brought up to current iLevel. Not that they would be the best in class. This is SE we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they changed the pecking order of best in class RME weapons just to make you go build something else for the jobs you already built mythics for, or just made the weapons from new content slightly better.

Maybe that's not enough for you. But I'm reminded of your posts in the Alluvian Skirmish thread.

It's not. I can already beat everything without them. Carn is the only one that interests me at all really, because that duration makes the job way easier to play. If there was something in the game that you just had to have one of these to have a reasonable hope of winning, maybe. But like cammie said. They shouldn't be designing content around these and apparently they have stopped doing so.

You know what Mythics are? Guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently by a +1 version in September.

They guaranteed they would be updated. I didn't see anything saying they would all be the best forever. You never know what SE is gonna do. Even if the weapons stay best stat wise, they could do something dumb like give an ability that caps song duration without carn, or a new slew of OAT weapons that beat them or change ws properties in a way that makes them suck.

I have much less to say about the magnitude and fun of the grind. I maintain that just like anyone can cook, anyone can make a Mythic. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of time it takes is a drop in the bucket, a mere fraction of the time you've spent playing FFXI. Demonjustin estimated 4-6 months. What's 4-6 months if you've played for 8 years?

Incidentally, I was a chef for 12 years. A lot of people cannot cook. :P

The tasks can all be accomplished with a PT or less, which means that you can progress casually, at your own pace. Sure, Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul, and Assaults are all easy. But that means that anybody of any level can make progress. No gear check whatsoever. You can come back from a 5-year break, equip yourself in sparks gear, and make a Mythic if you want. As casually as you want.

Everything is easy until it's not. The whole game is easy if you put it that way. Being easy and being something that people want to pay money every month to do are not even remotely the same thing though.

[detlef]

Being upgraded does not = staying best in class. You could very easily see a dagger from new content that gives +60% song duration and Carnwenhan only getting bumped up to 55%. They said they would be brought up to current iLevel. Not that they would be the best in class. This is SE we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they changed the pecking order of best in class RME weapons just to make you go build something else for the jobs you already built mythics for, or just made the weapons from new content slightly better.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if Legato Dagger were better than it is. If the ilvl 109 option only adds 5% duration, it's hard to imagine the devs introducing another higher ilvl weapon that competes with Mythic for song duration.

It's not. I can already beat everything without them. Carn is the only one that interests me at all really, because that duration makes the job way easier to play. If there was something in the game that you just had to have one of these to have a reasonable hope of winning, maybe. But like cammie said. They shouldn't be designing content around these and apparently they have stopped doing so.

Yes, I agree that content should not be designed around some significant portion of the population owning Mythic weapons. I also agree that you don't need them to win anything.

They guaranteed they would be updated. I didn't see anything saying they would all be the best forever. You never know what SE is gonna do. Even if the weapons stay best stat wise, they could do something dumb like give an ability that caps song duration without carn, or a new slew of OAT weapons that beat them or change ws properties in a way that makes them suck.

I did say that Mythics are "guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently." I've already acknowledged that there will be times in the future where some Mythics may be temporarily shelved in favor of newer weapons. But the duration of that time is entirely up to the player. We don't know how hard the upgrade process will be but people push through it.

Incidentally, I was a chef for 12 years. A lot of people cannot cook. :P

Everything is easy until it's not. The whole game is easy if you put it that way. Being easy and being something that people want to pay money every month to do are not even remotely the same thing though.

I don't think you really addressed my points with these responses. Anyone can make a Mythic. It's not fun for everybody, and the process may only be appreciated by old school grinders. But it's entirely possible for anybody to do if they really want it. I just don't think people really sit down and map out the necessary effort. If they did, they would see that yes, it may be a long process but if you've played the game for 8 years, what's another half year?

Also, like you said, you don't need them to beat any content in the game. So if they are completely unneeded to win but also possible for anybody to make then what's wrong with things the way they are?

[FrankReynolds]

I'd be inclined to agree with you if Legato Dagger were better than it is. If the ilvl 109 option only adds 5% duration, it's hard to imagine the devs introducing another higher ilvl weapon that competes with Mythic for song duration.

You're probably right on that particular weapon. Some of the other weapons though.... I don't know.

I did say that Mythics are "guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently." I've already acknowledged that there will be times in the future where some Mythics may be temporarily shelved in favor of newer weapons. But the duration of that time is entirely up to the player. We don't know how hard the upgrade process will be but people push through it.

But you're assuming they will be updated to be the best eventually and not just updated to be "On par" with the best. There's really no guarantee that some new gear item or weapon won't create a situation where mythics aren't as good, ie. ionis zones, or when wearing some specific new armor or against new monsters or only useful when a certain trait is needed like -emnity and generally not as good the rest of the time. SE actually said something to that effect a while back when they were planning 119 upgrades.

I don't think you really addressed my points with these responses. Anyone can make a Mythic. It's not fun for everybody, and the process may only be appreciated by old school grinders. But it's entirely possible for anybody to do if they really want it. I just don't think people really sit down and map out the necessary effort. If they did, they would see that yes, it may be a long process but if you've played the game for 8 years, what's another half year?

I was more or less joking about the cooking thing, but like I said. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will want to or that you should. It literally doesn't matter how "easy" it is. It matters if it's worth doing. Whether it's worth doing is in the mind of the person doing it. A lot of people don't like doing it. Putting the pinnacle items in your game in something that people don't like to do is just bad. Even if people don't need that item. Even if it's "Easy". it's still bad business to put it there.

Also, like you said, you don't need them to beat any content in the game. So if they are completely unneeded to win but also possible for anybody to make then what's wrong with things the way they are?

Because if I'm gonna pay for a game, I want The guy with the best wits and the best skill to get things faster. I don't want the guy with the most time and the highest tolerance for tedium to get things that skill and wit cannot reasonably obtain. The game of "Who can wait in line the longest" doesn't sound fun. I mean I'm not saying there isn't a video game market for the unemployed OCD crowd who just needs something / anything to do. I just think it's incredibly small, unreliable market. SE can cater to that crowd if they want, But I'll definitely be opposed to that sort of stuff every time.


And to reiterate, I'm not saying that stuff should be obtainable in a day. I'm just saying that the amount it takes is too much. I mean lets be honest. The part we're talking about is the part that basically requires you to spend all your time shouting for people to do it. That's not even really playing the game. Even if you just love wiping the whole zone in einherjar in 5 minutes once a day or clicking lamps in Nyzul a million times, nobody likes just standing around shouting.

[detlef]

But you're assuming they will be updated to be the best eventually and not just updated to be "On par" with the best. There's really no guarantee that some new gear item or weapon won't create a situation where mythics aren't as good, ie. ionis zones, or when wearing some specific new armor or against new monsters or only useful when a certain trait is needed like -emnity and generally not as good the rest of the time. SE actually said something to that effect a while back when they were planning 119 upgrades.

Fair point, even if the weapons are upgrade we don't know if they'll be the best or just on par or competitive. I think they will be at or near the top but again there's no way to get into the devs' heads.

I was more or less joking about the cooking thing, but like I said. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will want to or that you should. It literally doesn't matter how "easy" it is. It matters if it's worth doing. Whether it's worth doing is in the mind of the person doing it. A lot of people don't like doing it. Putting the pinnacle items in your game in something that people don't like to do is just bad. Even if people don't need that item. Even if it's "Easy". it's still bad business to put it there.

Because if I'm gonna pay for a game, I want The guy with the best wits and the best skill to get things faster. I don't want the guy with the most time and the highest tolerance for tedium to get things that skill and wit cannot reasonably obtain. The game of "Who can wait in line the longest" doesn't sound fun. I mean I'm not saying there isn't a video game market for the unemployed OCD crowd who just needs something / anything to do. I just think it's incredibly small, unreliable market. SE can cater to that crowd if they want, But I'll definitely be opposed to that sort of stuff every time.


And to reiterate, I'm not saying that stuff should be obtainable in a day. I'm just saying that the amount it takes is too much. I mean lets be honest. The part we're talking about is the part that basically requires you to spend all your time shouting for people to do it. That's not even really playing the game. Even if you just love wiping the whole zone in einherjar in 5 minutes once a day or clicking lamps in Nyzul a million times, nobody likes just standing around shouting.

Well, it seems we just have a difference in opinion on what people are willing to put up with to reach a goal and what people find gratifying and satisfying.

I think the Mythic upgrade process is fine as is, but I wouldn't necessarily complain if they eased things up a little. Mostly I'd be in favor of QoL improvements like no Einherjar PT minimum, faster Assault tags, Nyzul lamp adjustments, Alexandrite 100/1000 pieces or being able to retrieve alex from the Qiqirn. Things like that.

I don't want Mythics to become as common as level 85/90 Empyrean weapons during the VW era. That's definitely something that would upset me a little.

[Afania]

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

This isn't strange POV at all, this is the reason why RME became a requirement to play the job before SoA. We already went through the era that everyone own a legendary, it's a proven fact that it made the game unplayable for ppl without one. Been saying that 5 pages ago.

The only problem though is SE made some of the mythics at least be the best weapon for a select few jobs. So the min/maxers will still call you gimped even if you have the best for said job in all but weapon because you don't have one. Also, yes you are underestimating the jerkass and unrealistic expectations of the community.

Real min/maxers are truly minority in this game, even less than mythic owners. Why do you care what they say? Personally I've never meet any real min/maxers in my life.

[Elexia]

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

Yeah about that - 75 cap Relics were a rarity. Mythics even more rare. Empyrean weapons are like M&Ms simply because the processes has almost no gates to overcome. With Relics you still had to do certain objectives in Dynamis including some interesting NMs to fight. Mythics was basically mastering all of ToAU's content with the usual currency collection.

They eased everything because people were complaining that it was too rare and "too hard." With Mythics, that quest, yeah, THAT one needed adjustments out of all 4 of the quests. So in all reality, it changed because of people not liking that they were rare.