"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[Afania]

My playing well doesn't harm anyone. Not having access to gear does.

Not having access to gear doesn't harm anyone lol. You don't get hurt, you don't starve, you just.....don't have certain pixel item/accomplishment in a video game. After you log off you still have your family, friends and job, not having a pixel item/accomplishment won't affect you a bit. What harm does that do?

Video game needs accomplishment so players are willing to pay monthly fee, but players doesn't NEED accomplishment in a video game to survive, you're getting it wrong. If this game has no accomplishment that I'm interested in I'd just click cancel sub button, if I don't have certain shiny in this game I wouldn't feel unhappy about it.

I'm not pointing fingers because in all honesty I don't care. I've hardly paid attention at this point to much of this at all. The part I have paid attention to is that it's all getting fairly poor, both of you to some extent could be seen as acting at very least a bit childish. That's part of why I made a point of requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one. If we just continue how this has been going then SE will ignore it all, the topic will continue to be derailed but even more meaninglessly, and neither side will come away caring about the outcome of it all nor will they have learnt anything. I find debates like those to be pointless wastes of time.

Only if Mrkillface stop downplaying my motivation into something else and think so high of his own motivation!

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

[Lithera]

*head-desks and face-palms*

[Afania]

*head-desks and face-palms*

requesting we actually try to have a civil and meaningful conversation if we're going to bother having one.

FYI Demonjustin isnt' happy.

[Demonjustin]

I'm almost never happy, but that's beside the point. In all honesty part of what you just did is why I said this is childish.

Only if Mrkillface stop downplaying my motivation into something else and think so high of his own motivation!

More or less finger pointing, saying "he did it first!", and attempting to justify poorly constructed replies by claiming their replies are what led to the degradation of your own. Not trying to come off like a pretentious prick but if you want to have a real debate the best way isn't to set the bar only as high as the person you're debating sets it for you. If you take it seriously and they do such things then anyone coming in such as myself can easily tell who's acting like a child in the situation. If you see someone acting like a child and as a result allow that mindset to consume your own then you've only allowed the debate to degrade into a childish argument and killed any chance you had to maintain a more serious position, especially to those looking in on it from the outside.

This is why I'm not pointing fingers, I quite honestly don't care who began to misinterpreted the other's argument, it's of no importance. You both allowed what could have been a decent debate about something in the game become a semantical argument over stupid BS, such as when an example of Karate is made and in return, ignoring the point of the comment, it's pointed out that Karate doesn't involve swords. People on these forums and how they debate things annoys the hell out of me quite frankly, I mean hell, we have another thread which over the last week had become an argument about the word vanilla. Really, we have a forum for a game, and we're arguing about the meaning of the word vanilla. Why is it so hard to just take an argument at face value and reply to it, and if your argument is misunderstood then attempt to correct the misunderstanding by better asserting your point? I've argued with people on here for a few years now and learnt quite a bit in doing so, but looking at it now it feels kinda pathetic being part of a community that has such a hard time entertaining a thought for more than 10 posts without someone derailing it into something completely meaningless and stupid or turning it into a battle of who can better dodge points and misinterpreted arguments made against them...

I you're right though. I'm not happy, I'm disappointed in the community I've become a part of over the last few years.

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

There's no victory in telling a community no constantly or ignoring them. Neither one will ever lead to happy people. Both of those things are what we've gotten. In the past it was ignoring every thread practically with only 1/10 possibly getting a reply, most of which were either an answer of "no" or "not at the moment". You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is happy with either of these results. While I'm not going to say all suggestions are equal or most suggestions should be implemented, surely more than 5% of suggestions are worth at least considering... When our response is almost always nearly identical to our last and they all look like they follow some sort of copy paste formula that could be filled out by simply reading the title of the thread, a few lines of the OP, and then hitting "Post Reply" when finished, it's no wonder people aren't happy about it.

While this thread didn't have much of anywhere to go in terms of an actual topic, it did have a point to make, and I think it did it well. Continuing to post here even off topic keeps that thought in mind as the name of the thread alone is enough to refresh in our minds just how often SE has told us this same thing, and continues to tell us it again every few days. So, derailing this topic isn't really a bad thing to me, had no where to go and we're keeping the thread and it's idea relevant, great thing to do when this argument would happen anyways in another thread in less than a week anyways but would serve less purpose at that point. So, while I disagree it has no purpose, I honestly don't mind a meaningful derail of it since it seems more beneficial than detrimental. My issue is only when the argument becomes so poor it's not only painful to watch/read but also getting no where at all.

[FrankReynolds]

I was going to reply to this...

Not having access to gear doesn't harm anyone lol. You don't get hurt, you don't starve, you just.....don't have certain pixel item/accomplishment in a video game. After you log off you still have your family, friends and job, not having a pixel item/accomplishment won't affect you a bit. What harm does that do?

But you seem to have rebuked your own argument....

Video game needs accomplishment so players are willing to pay monthly fee, but players doesn't NEED accomplishment in a video game to survive, you're getting it wrong. If this game has no accomplishment that I'm interested in I'd just click cancel sub button, if I don't have certain shiny in this game I wouldn't feel unhappy about it.

[Afania]

I
More or less finger pointing, saying "he did it first!", and attempting to justify poorly constructed replies by claiming their replies are what led to the degradation of your own.

This is more like a joking/not serious way to counter someone's argument that's based on subjective POV but not proper logic nor reasoning.

This is more of an issue that Mrkillface continue to construct his argument out of HIS logic, by applying his subjective POV on everyone, and not respecting other's opinion. Every point I made, he just dismissed it with "I think you're just X" "Nahhhh, I think you're X! You're just X!" or "I think fun is Y"....basically everything is HIS opinion, and not supported with a reason.

Since there's no way I can counter anyone's subjective argument with reasoning, besides a not so serious attitude "he did it first!"

FYI, he did counter my opinion with a solid reason once, which is the definition of skill= practice and experience, and I DID accept his opinion that playing FFXI is a skill, just doesn't affect the performance nearly as much as gears. I don't think clicking macros very fast is a skill(thus you think it's "poorly constructed because it was indeed based on my subjective POV"), but it could fit the definition if you look into it. If someone express his POV out of a fact, but not opinion, then I will accept it.

Everything else is basically based on "No you just wanna be a cool kid in town because I said so!" or "I don't think long grind is accomplishment nor fun because I said so!" "If ppl can't aim for every gear in this game it's bad because I said so!"

Right, definition of fun is his opinion, I got it. But surely there isn't a reason to brought it up over and over again as there won't be a real conclusion over this.

Also, there's a reason why dev won't reply every request, game dev's often view game issues from completely different POV from gamers most of the time. Some of the request are beyond silly on these forums, and replying everything needs resources. Some requests makes sense on these forums, but very 1 sided without math support, just personal experience that doesn't apply to everyone. Topic derailing surely isn't the reason why dev ignored us.

There's also a reason why I replied to that Karate thing. He used Karate as an argument about skill v.s gears. I replied that in standard Karate competitions, you don't hold swords, you fight with bare hands, so it's not a good example. It's not derailing, it's relevant to the discussion.

I was going to reply to this...



But you seem to have rebuked your own argument....

See? Not this again. I fail to see in what way that I "rebuked my own argument". If you like other accomplishments like short grind or solo AA, just go do it. I didn't ask SE to remove every accomplishment in game besides long term goal. But removing long grind would means less goal to aim for players liking long grind.

[Demonjustin]

Also, there's a reason why dev won't reply every request, game dev's often view game issues from completely different POV from gamers most of the time. Some of the request are beyond silly on these forums, and replying everything needs resources. Some requests makes sense on these forums, but very 1 sided without math support, just personal experience that doesn't apply to everyone. Topic derailing surely isn't the reason why dev ignored us.

As I said, I don't expect a reply to everything nor do I expect all ideas to be implemented. That said, saying no to literally more than 3/4ths of the ideas ever presented no matter their degree of support from the community nor their degree of reasoning presented in them is simply ludicrous. I don't believe this thread should get a response except for at most an explanation as to why so many ideas are turned down so often. The fact this was derailed as I said before is actually something I think is a good thing, not a bad thing. It keeps this up top in General Discussion at nearly all times which is wonderful as the title alone serves as a reminder to why this thread was even made. My problem with derailing is when we go from a meaningful topic in this thread to something stupid and nonsensical, when the argument becomes stupid, pointless, and circular, getting no where and only wasting the time of those involved. I love debates where people learn, grow, or change their mind based on things presented in general, but debates where people just run in circles, misinterpret arguments, argue semantics, or ignore points made, are debates that serve only to waste time. This to some extent was becoming one of those, which is why I popped in here as I did.

There's also a reason why I replied to that Karate thing. He used Karate as an argument about skill v.s gears. I replied that in standard Karate competitions, you don't hold swords, you fight with bare hands, so it's not a good example. It's not derailing, it's relevant to the discussion.

You ignored the substance of the point rather than addressing it, and instead addressed an irrelevant inaccuracy in which form of combat was being practiced in the example. As I showed earlier, by simply changing karate to kendo/kenjutsu you instantly fix the entire problem with that sentence. If you understood what was being said, you should have replied to the idea behind it, not simply ignored it and pointed out that using karate for the example was inaccurate.

All of that said, I believe the point behind it was that gear makes a difference but skill does too. You can have an example that is fair, or one that is not. A swordmaster in robes, armed with a shinai vs an average swordsman in armor, armed with a katana isn't a fair fight. The swordmaster may win, but the chances of victory are so far slanted against them that it's a ridiculous example of equipment beating out skill. This was similar to your argument that a Tsurumaru wielding SAM will beat out a Hagun wielding SAM quite easily. It's not literally impossible for the Hagun SAM to win, but you've slanted the odds so far against them that even if they were the best SAM to ever grace this game, and the Tsurumaru SAM had only been playing for the last three hours and barely understood the game's combat system, the Tsurumaru SAM would likely still win. There are gaps skill can close, but not all gaps are equal, there comes a point when skill no longer becomes a substitute, and I doubt you'll find many who will say skill means everything. That said, skill is by no means something to be discounted, you simply must have odds that present a fair example rather than one such as that.

[Olor]

There's no victory in telling a community no constantly or ignoring them. Neither one will ever lead to happy people. Both of those things are what we've gotten. In the past it was ignoring every thread practically with only 1/10 possibly getting a reply, most of which were either an answer of "no" or "not at the moment". You'd be hard pressed to find someone who is happy with either of these results. While I'm not going to say all suggestions are equal or most suggestions should be implemented, surely more than 5% of suggestions are worth at least considering... When our response is almost always nearly identical to our last and they all look like they follow some sort of copy paste formula that could be filled out by simply reading the title of the thread, a few lines of the OP, and then hitting "Post Reply" when finished, it's no wonder people aren't happy about it.

This. This so much. I think if we were at least given reasonable explanations for things, or even honest ones, then it might be different. But most of the time the reasons are nonsensical "we can't add those monsters as pets because they are scary!" or plain wrong "Knights of the Round is already very strong."

It doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that most of the time we either get nonsense answers, the silent treatment, or a copy-paste non response. "There are no plans" is probably the worst pat answer I've ever seen. For the most part we were aware that there "were no plans" which is why we are suggesting the devs make plans. Then, most of the time that we do get real news, it is just translated from JP posts. It's insulting.

[Alhanelem]

As much as I like official responses, i'd rather them not say anything than constantly say "no plans" "no plans" "no plans" "no plans" "no plans" "no plans""no plans" all the time. Other than the combined NA and JP backlash at the terrible "learning chance" job point category getting us a change, there's been few cases where anyone's feed back (JP or otherwise) seems to have produced results.

One thing that's been bugging me in particular is how there's been no update to monstrosity in quite some time. I'd like to see some improvements to belligerency to incentivize participation, and the usual new families and content for monipulators (and where is the MON on MON combat that the NPCs even refer to despite it not being available?)

[Xerius]

Also this entire thread has no purpose to begin with. If SE doesn't reply at all then ppl complained, if SE reply with "Currently have no plans to....." ppl still complain. It's complaining about something not even worth complaining, nor talking about an in game issue.

If this thread has no purpose then I would argue that the entire forums serves no purpose. The point of this thread was to point out a disturbing trend that many people (myself included, obviously) with the devs not paying any attention to what the player base wants and just saying there are no plans for anything that we submit regardless of merit or not. No one is saying that they shouldn't tell us anything, I'm not even saying they shouldn't tell us, "The development team does not currently have plans to..." all we're saying that we'd like to know:
A) An explanation for why things would break the game.
B) Let us know what they do have planned.