"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[FrankReynolds]

I'd be inclined to agree with you if Legato Dagger were better than it is. If the ilvl 109 option only adds 5% duration, it's hard to imagine the devs introducing another higher ilvl weapon that competes with Mythic for song duration.

You're probably right on that particular weapon. Some of the other weapons though.... I don't know.

I did say that Mythics are "guaranteed gratification that aren't going to be outclassed permanently." I've already acknowledged that there will be times in the future where some Mythics may be temporarily shelved in favor of newer weapons. But the duration of that time is entirely up to the player. We don't know how hard the upgrade process will be but people push through it.

But you're assuming they will be updated to be the best eventually and not just updated to be "On par" with the best. There's really no guarantee that some new gear item or weapon won't create a situation where mythics aren't as good, ie. ionis zones, or when wearing some specific new armor or against new monsters or only useful when a certain trait is needed like -emnity and generally not as good the rest of the time. SE actually said something to that effect a while back when they were planning 119 upgrades.

I don't think you really addressed my points with these responses. Anyone can make a Mythic. It's not fun for everybody, and the process may only be appreciated by old school grinders. But it's entirely possible for anybody to do if they really want it. I just don't think people really sit down and map out the necessary effort. If they did, they would see that yes, it may be a long process but if you've played the game for 8 years, what's another half year?

I was more or less joking about the cooking thing, but like I said. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will want to or that you should. It literally doesn't matter how "easy" it is. It matters if it's worth doing. Whether it's worth doing is in the mind of the person doing it. A lot of people don't like doing it. Putting the pinnacle items in your game in something that people don't like to do is just bad. Even if people don't need that item. Even if it's "Easy". it's still bad business to put it there.

Also, like you said, you don't need them to beat any content in the game. So if they are completely unneeded to win but also possible for anybody to make then what's wrong with things the way they are?

Because if I'm gonna pay for a game, I want The guy with the best wits and the best skill to get things faster. I don't want the guy with the most time and the highest tolerance for tedium to get things that skill and wit cannot reasonably obtain. The game of "Who can wait in line the longest" doesn't sound fun. I mean I'm not saying there isn't a video game market for the unemployed OCD crowd who just needs something / anything to do. I just think it's incredibly small, unreliable market. SE can cater to that crowd if they want, But I'll definitely be opposed to that sort of stuff every time.


And to reiterate, I'm not saying that stuff should be obtainable in a day. I'm just saying that the amount it takes is too much. I mean lets be honest. The part we're talking about is the part that basically requires you to spend all your time shouting for people to do it. That's not even really playing the game. Even if you just love wiping the whole zone in einherjar in 5 minutes once a day or clicking lamps in Nyzul a million times, nobody likes just standing around shouting.

[detlef]

But you're assuming they will be updated to be the best eventually and not just updated to be "On par" with the best. There's really no guarantee that some new gear item or weapon won't create a situation where mythics aren't as good, ie. ionis zones, or when wearing some specific new armor or against new monsters or only useful when a certain trait is needed like -emnity and generally not as good the rest of the time. SE actually said something to that effect a while back when they were planning 119 upgrades.

Fair point, even if the weapons are upgrade we don't know if they'll be the best or just on par or competitive. I think they will be at or near the top but again there's no way to get into the devs' heads.

I was more or less joking about the cooking thing, but like I said. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will want to or that you should. It literally doesn't matter how "easy" it is. It matters if it's worth doing. Whether it's worth doing is in the mind of the person doing it. A lot of people don't like doing it. Putting the pinnacle items in your game in something that people don't like to do is just bad. Even if people don't need that item. Even if it's "Easy". it's still bad business to put it there.

Because if I'm gonna pay for a game, I want The guy with the best wits and the best skill to get things faster. I don't want the guy with the most time and the highest tolerance for tedium to get things that skill and wit cannot reasonably obtain. The game of "Who can wait in line the longest" doesn't sound fun. I mean I'm not saying there isn't a video game market for the unemployed OCD crowd who just needs something / anything to do. I just think it's incredibly small, unreliable market. SE can cater to that crowd if they want, But I'll definitely be opposed to that sort of stuff every time.


And to reiterate, I'm not saying that stuff should be obtainable in a day. I'm just saying that the amount it takes is too much. I mean lets be honest. The part we're talking about is the part that basically requires you to spend all your time shouting for people to do it. That's not even really playing the game. Even if you just love wiping the whole zone in einherjar in 5 minutes once a day or clicking lamps in Nyzul a million times, nobody likes just standing around shouting.

Well, it seems we just have a difference in opinion on what people are willing to put up with to reach a goal and what people find gratifying and satisfying.

I think the Mythic upgrade process is fine as is, but I wouldn't necessarily complain if they eased things up a little. Mostly I'd be in favor of QoL improvements like no Einherjar PT minimum, faster Assault tags, Nyzul lamp adjustments, Alexandrite 100/1000 pieces or being able to retrieve alex from the Qiqirn. Things like that.

I don't want Mythics to become as common as level 85/90 Empyrean weapons during the VW era. That's definitely something that would upset me a little.

[FrankReynolds]

Mostly I'd be in favor of QoL improvements like no Einherjar PT minimum, faster Assault tags, Nyzul lamp adjustments, Alexandrite 100/1000 pieces or being able to retrieve alex from the Qiqirn. Things like that.

I don't want Mythics to become as common as level 85/90 Empyrean weapons during the VW era. That's definitely something that would upset me a little.

That's what I mean. I'm not saying they should cut it to 1,000 alex and a win each in nyzul/einherjar. I'm just saying that the event needs QoL changes. Double Ichor days would be nice. They wouldn't suddenly make building a mythic into a one day affair. But they're nice for the guy who is already doing it. Allowing people to solo Nyzul / einherjar isn't going to allow a guy to build his weapon twice as fast. It just cuts down the chatlog spam and wasted time. The guy is still going once per day. But now, he's not bugging everyone about it. Those sort of things don't make the quest so easy that everyone will do it, they just make is less horrible so that a few more people will do it. Small changes make a world of difference.

And while were on the subject of QOL, isn't it high time that they did away with the inventory clogging and just made zeni accumulate every time you took a picture like cruor/plasm/exp does when you kill a mob? Do we really need the inventory clogging convoluted system of trading in actual items for points? Even with all these new bags, holding all that stuff is annoying and unnecessary. The item pics used for pankration should be a separate device / system entirely.

[Afania]

He said that people would still play content that doesn't reward weapons, but instead rewards gear/accessories/etc. You complain about people misrepresenting your argument when you do it yourself..

I didn't misrepresent his argument, and I understand what he said just fine. I just don't find it'd work in future update. The content still has to include weapon for those without mythic, on the other hand most ppl wouldn't be interested in the content because they have mythics. That's reason why legion was unpopular, because half of the weapons from legion was inferior to empy, and most endgame player has empy. And yet SE still has to implement weapons as reward in new content.

You can't rely on armor/accessory for future update only.

As for this argument, it's honestly too long and I don't care enough to put my eggs in either basket. I'll never get a mythic. I don't play frequently or maintain the necessary amount of self control to do the events every day. But I think it's incredibly erroneous to compare the acquisition of a Relic or Mythic to other content in other MMOs. Don't pretend all players that have a mythic are good, a lot of players that have mythics are good, but I know some stinkers too. It's not hard. It's long and tedious and requires dedication.

Why do you(and Mrkillface) bring up this "hard" argument in mythic over and over again. I'm not talking about difficulty, I don't care about the difficulty, I only care about longevity. If you want to talk about difficulty, killing trash mobs in Ein is as easy as killing NMs in tree, I don't think that's even relevant in this discussion.....unless you're very eager to find an excuse not to do it.

It is not hard.
Other games have you complete newer content to get newer weapons. Even games like FFXIV, which do tier you through content to get a relic and then zenith and then whatever the hell glowy version requires you to actually do stuff.

Do lol Fate with a weapon equipped for KI you mean.

I don't think Relic/Mythics should have been taken past 75. Then they shouldn't have been taken past 99.

I'm not sure about the above statement tbh, I have a mixed feeling toward the existence of RME, I'd like to explain why though, since I'm not sure if you're around during 75 era.

Old Relic/mythics used to take a LOT more effort to obtain than current mythic, and designed as some sort of "ultimate weapon" that takes years to obtain. When SE released empy after Abyssea expansion, those weapons were outclassed by empy, AND 10x harder to obtain. So the old relic owners Q.Q on the forum about their weapon being outclassed by an easier option. Because it wasn't fair for them to spend more time and effort and ended up with an inferior weapon. So SE buffed relic and mythic past 75.

As the time goes on, Mythic and relics became a lot easier to obtain so more ppl have them, as SE move on to ilv119, they have to adjust RME to 119 as well or else it wouldn't be fair for them as well.

If RME never exist, then it wouldn't be an issue at all. Since SE already created RME to be a time consuming long term goal so it's only logical for it to stay relevant forever. There are only 2 options for legendary weapons: 1) Don't put weapons like this in game at all 2) Keep it relevant forever. You can't leavet at 75 or 99, RME didn't get an update after SoA release is the reason why this game lost half of the sub in 2013.

IMO, having RME in FFXI is one of the more unique aspect of FFXI. Instead of spend some time to grind a weapon you'd need to toss next update, there's another type of weapon that's always the best as ilv go up, a virtual weapon with emotional attachment and personality.

I don't think I'm an expert in game design, I just play the games and analyze them based on the facts, what makes them successful and what makes them fail.

Every MMO is built upon "not everyone can have every item", fact. Raid based MMO's like that, Diablo's like that, F2P's like that.

FFXI lost sub when RME didn't get an update......fact as well.

[FrankReynolds]

I didn't misrepresent his argument, and I understand what he said just fine. I just don't find it'd work in future update. The content still has to include weapon for those without mythic, on the other hand most ppl wouldn't be interested in the content because they have mythics. That's reason why legion was unpopular, because half of the weapons from legion was inferior to empy, and most endgame player has empy. And yet SE still has to implement weapons as reward in new content.

You can't rely on armor/accessory for future update only.



Why do you(and Mrkillface) bring up this "hard" argument in mythic over and over again. I'm not talking about difficulty, I don't care about the difficulty, I only care about longevity. If you want to talk about difficulty, killing trash mobs in Ein is as easy as killing NMs in tree, I don't think that's even relevant in this discussion.....unless you're very eager to find an excuse not to do it.

You are misrepresenting both my argument and the one above. Not sure if on purpose or accident.

I'm not sure about the above statement tbh, I have a mixed feeling toward the existence of RME, I'd like to explain why though, since I'm not sure if you're around during 75 era.

Old Relic/mythics used to take a LOT more effort to obtain than current mythic, and designed as some sort of "ultimate weapon" that takes years to obtain. When SE released empy after Abyssea expansion, those weapons were outclassed by empy, AND 10x harder to obtain. So the old relic owners Q.Q on the forum about their weapon being outclassed by an easier option. Because it wasn't fair for them to spend more time and effort and ended up with an inferior weapon. So SE buffed relic and mythic past 75.

As the time goes on, Mythic and relics became a lot easier to obtain so more ppl have them, as SE move on to ilv119, they have to adjust RME to 119 as well or else it wouldn't be fair for them as well.

If RME never exist, then it wouldn't be an issue at all. Since SE already created RME to be a time consuming long term goal so it's only logical for it to stay relevant forever. There are only 2 options for legendary weapons: 1) Don't put weapons like this in game at all 2) Keep it relevant forever. You can't leavet at 75 or 99, RME didn't get an update after SoA release is the reason why this game lost half of the sub in 2013.

IMO, having RME in FFXI is one of the more unique aspect of FFXI. Instead of spend some time to grind a weapon you'd need to toss next update, there's another type of weapon that's always the best as ilv go up, a virtual weapon with emotional attachment and personality.

I don't think I'm an expert in game design, I just play the games and analyze them based on the facts, what makes them successful and what makes them fail.

Every MMO is built upon "not everyone can have every item", fact. Raid based MMO's like that, Diablo's like that, F2P's like that.

FFXI lost sub when RME didn't get an update......fact as well.

Solution: make the weapons less relevant and easier to obtain, shift focus to other gear slots.

[Afania]

Solution: make the weapons less relevant and easier to obtain, shift focus to other gear slots.

We have enough "irrelevant and easy to obtain" weapons in this game, we don't need more.

[Demonjustin]

We have enough "irrelevant and easy to obtain" weapons in this game, we don't need more.

Less relevant and irrelevant don't mean the same thing.

[Arbalest]

Less relevant and irrelevant don't mean the same thing.

You'll have to yell. I don't think she can hear you.

[FrankReynolds]

I guess I was wrong. Lots of people are doing Mythics now...


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...nts-Not-Banned

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/123...age-Bans-v-2.0

[Elexia]

This may be a strange point of view coming from an average player, but I think the game would have been better served had Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics been made MORE difficult to the point that they truly would be a rarity. That way content would never have been developed with their existence in mind, and people wouldn't feel they absolutely had to have one just to play certain jobs. Sure there would be some linkshells and groups that still demanded them, but they'd no longer be the norm. But, like SE, I could be vastly underestimating the jerkass nature and unrealistic expectations of the community at large.

Yeah about that - 75 cap Relics were a rarity. Mythics even more rare. Empyrean weapons are like M&Ms simply because the processes has almost no gates to overcome. With Relics you still had to do certain objectives in Dynamis including some interesting NMs to fight. Mythics was basically mastering all of ToAU's content with the usual currency collection.

They eased everything because people were complaining that it was too rare and "too hard." With Mythics, that quest, yeah, THAT one needed adjustments out of all 4 of the quests. So in all reality, it changed because of people not liking that they were rare.