"THe Development Team Does Not Currently Have Plans Too..."

[FrankReynolds]

Some video game design fundamental 101 for you:

I never say anything about I or other players are playing this game for the content but not the reward, I only said I(or most of the MMO players) do the content for items, that's how video game design works, not sure why'd you turn it into "wanting to feeling special".

Because if you were doing it just for the reward, you would do delve. If you were doing it for the content you would do... basically anything that seemed fun. You are doing it for exclusivity. You want the item to remain exclusive. Challenging enough that you can do it, but not so much that the average joe can do it. You want to have something just for you and not for everyone else. Your motives are selfish and have nothing to do with the longevity of the game or keeping old players or any of the other justifications you've attempted.

Game design is always about setting a goal then put obstacles for the players to overcome to accomplish that goal. A game needs BOTH the content/obstacle AND goals to be a game. Whether the game is FFXI or Angry Birds. A game with no goal but just the content isn't a game.

...But we're not arguing about taking away the reward. We're arguing about accessibility. No one has suggested removing mythics from the game in this thread.

So I'm not sure why are you asking me to do the content without goals. If the game designer wants the player to do the content, it needs reward/goals, that's how the games work. This has nothing to do with myself being "noble" or not. I'm just doing the same thing as every other video game player would do.....which is to play a game for the reward/goal. An item/reward is just there for the ppl to do it.

If you were just doing it for the reward, you wouldn't care if I worked harder than you to get it or not. You have other thinly veiled motives for your arguments.

You can keep playing the irrelevant "you just want items to be exclusive" card over and over again, without grasping the most fundamental video game player mentality. Even if I go do the content for no reward cuz I'm out of my mind, 99% of players wouldn't do the content without reward.

A reward that isn't worth the effort is almost exactly the same as no reward at all. Doing 5% more damage is great and all, but working for months and months to do 5% more damage in a fight that you are almost certain to win without it is a waste of time for most people. It's like buying a ferrari to go to the grocery store. There are far better ways to spend your time.

To summarize for you since you fail to understand repeatly:

1) A game needs reward/goal if you want ppl to play.....nobody would do ein/assault if they can't get mythic from it. Nobody would pay a monthly sub if they log on and find no goal to aim for. Game design fundamental 101.

Game design fundamental 101: If the game sucks, nobody cares about the reward. If your flawed view of this rule were even remotely true, then final fantasy would have a billion customers throwing money at the devs to make the mythic quests even harder.

2) Current content goal isn't' long enough to keep most players around for more than 3 months without JP grind/RME grind/afterglow.

Given the fact that there are less than ten thousand mythics and more than 100,000 players, you are completely wrong.

3) Faster mythic= everyone run out of goals faster.

Current mythics = people just don't do them and quit even sooner.

4) Everyone run out of goals faster = population decline faster.

No one wants to do the content because it isn't worth the trouble and or they don't have time = population declines faster

Now if you still want to play the same "you want exclusive items!" repeatly, I won't bother to reply. By your logic anyone playing a video game wants to be special.....if you play Tetris you want to be special cuz you're aiming for high score!

Horrible example. I'm not even going to explain why.

This is incorrect, there are no decision making involved if reward/goal doesn't exist.

When a reward is obviously unobtainable, most people don't even try.

Same thing happens here. People who only have a couple hours a day to play could surely build a mythic eventually, but their entire game time would consist of doing something that sucks and the rest of their gear, quests, friends etc. would be completely ignored. It isn't because they suck, or they don't work hard enough, it's because the quest sucks and they have to choose between that and actually playing the fun part of the game. It's fine if you want to say "well they should sacrifice if they want the best", but there's a point where the sacrifice is not worth it and this is far past that point.

I didn't ask the Mythic to stay tedious, I only ask mythic to require certain time investment so players don't run out of goals fast. I don't mind they change the mythic requirement into current hard/fun content, as long as it still requires same amount of time to obtain.

And here you prove my point. You don't want them to add more goals to keep people from getting bored and quitting. You want them to keep this goal unobtainable for the masses. Like I said, there's no reason why they can't keep adding content and still do double ichor campaigns. If you really wanted goals and achievements, you'd be asking for more goals and achievements. Not trying to keep the same old crap.

There's nothing wrong about wanting to the achievement to be fun or challenging, but there's something wrong about wanting the achievement to come faster.

The amount of time that these quests require is not "Fast" even at half the length and the amount of solo play that it requires is a huge detriment to the social aspect to the game for anyone doing them.

Since you continue to play the "you wanna be special" card on me, I'm going to play the "you just want fast achievement" card on you as well.

So what if I do? I have nothing to prove to you. My boss knows I'm a hard worker and they pay me really well for it as evidence. I don't care at all if the gaming community approves of my work ethics. This is a game. I do this for fun. I don't do it to impress you or anyone else. If I don't thinkk something is fun, I'm not gonna puff out my chest and try to prove to people I can do it. I'll save that for people that pay me.

Hey, you could have name yourself "Jack" or something.

Jack was (not surprisingly) already taken. Most common names were.

^^ In response to the above post about how mythics are more trouble then they are worth. I don't know how to tell you how more wrong you could be. Speaking as someone who has a Burtgang ill tell you that the increase in job performance is in terms of lvls of magnitude. There is nothing that even comes close in terms of a wpn for pld.

You can't have your cake and eat it to on this. You can't say oh well the requirements should be lessened and then say oh well the items aren't really worth it anyway. Really sounds like your just being lazy on the issue.

Just because something is worth having doesn't mean it has to be worth the effort. I would love to have a 2014 porsche. I even have the money to buy one. It's a dumb investment. I drive like 50 miles a month. That doesn't mean Porsches aren't worth having. They're great. They're just not worth the effort and sacrifice. I could drive a hyundai and spend the money someplace more useful like another rental property.

Same thing here. It would be great to out parse all the other samurai by 10%. No reason to do it. Shaving 45 seconds off a delve run means nothing. The content doesn't require that weapon or even significantly benefit from it. Burtang is slightly more useful, but again not necessary.

It's a catch 22. The weapons aren't worth this amount of time if they aren't significantly better than they are right now and / or they make it possible to beat something you can't easily beat without them. If they were that much better, it would be completely unfair to the other 90% of the player base who can't obtain one. There's simply no room in the game for crap like this. It's lazy development and that's it.

I mean maybe you only play one job, hate very other job and are just out of stuff to do for that job. But then you should be asking for more content. Not trying to keep other people from getting on your level.

[detlef]

It's a catch 22. The weapons aren't worth this amount of time if they aren't significantly better than they are right now and / or they make it possible to beat something you can't easily beat without them. If they were that much better, it would be completely unfair to the other 90% of the player base who can't obtain one. There's simply no room in the game for crap like this. It's lazy development and that's it.

Whether it's worth it or not is something that varies from player to player. What seems ludicrous and completely unworthy of your time to you might be viewed as a reasonable long term goal to somebody else.

[FrankReynolds]

Whether it's worth it or not is something that varies from player to player. What seems ludicrous and completely unworthy of your time to you might be viewed as a reasonable long term goal to somebody else.

Maybe, but that doesn't have anything to do with wanting it to take longer. Wanting something and agreeing with the price doesn't mean that it would be better if it cost more or worse if it cost less. The price doesn't make the item any better unless you just want the item in order to have something others can't afford, which is something no one has been willing to admit to so far.

For example: If and when I do buy a porsche, I'll happily admit that I did it because people who can't afford it will be jealous and chicks dig it. I'm not gonna lie and say I did it to shorten my commute or that it has more trunk space or that it represents the achievement of some lofty goal I had.

[detlef]

Maybe, but that doesn't have anything to do with wanting it to take longer. Wanting something and agreeing with the price doesn't mean that it would be better if it cost more or worse if it cost less. The price doesn't make the item any better unless you just want the item in order to have something others can't afford, which is something no one has been willing to admit to so far.

For example: If and when I do buy a porsche, I'll happily admit that I did it because people who can't afford it will be jealous and chicks dig it. I'm not gonna lie and say I did it to shorten my commute or that it has more trunk space or that it represents the achievement of some lofty goal I had.

I'll freely admit that I like having something that not everybody has. It's human nature.

But I also think that the current system is very fair. A permanently good weapon (which is even more valuable now in the ever-changing ilvl landscape) for a reasonable (to me) amount of effort. In these days where you have Delve, Skirmish, and Hard Mode BC drops all at ilvl 119 gear (with higher ilvls to come), it cannot be stressed enough how valuable a weapon is if you can use it for the rest of this game's life.

The requirements have been dumbed down so much over the years (bi-weekly Einherjar became daily, Assaults/Nyzul can now be soloed, ToAU beastman kings have much more reasonable spawn conditions, Salvage is now soloable). In addition, we are so much more powerful now. You can clear AR in half an hour or less if you want to. Alexandrite is plentiful.

We can debate back and forth forever I suppose. To continue your Porsche example, in addition to being cool and unique looking, the car would have to perform better than any other car and also never be surpassed by another vehicle. In addition it would have some special, unique attribute that no other car has. And you'll be able to use it forever, or at least until humans learn how to teleport.

[FrankReynolds]

I'll freely admit that I like having something that not everybody has. It's human nature.

That's fair enough and I respect that. Most of the comments in these mythic threads insist that the people asking for change are being selfish and refuse to admit that their motivation is just as selfish if not more.

But I also think that the current system is very fair. A permanently good weapon (which is even more valuable now in the ever-changing ilvl landscape) for a reasonable (to me) amount of effort. In these days where you have Delve, Skirmish, and Hard Mode BC drops all at ilvl 119 gear (with higher ilvls to come), it cannot be stressed enough how valuable a weapon is if you can use it for the rest of this game's life.

The requirements have been dumbed down so much over the years (bi-weekly Einherjar became daily, Assaults/Nyzul can now be soloed, ToAU beastman kings have much more reasonable spawn conditions, Salvage is now soloable). In addition, we are so much more powerful now. You can clear AR in half an hour or less if you want to. Alexandrite is plentiful.

We can debate back and forth forever I suppose. To continue your Porsche example, in addition to being cool and unique looking, the car would have to perform better than any other car and also never be surpassed by another vehicle. In addition it would have some special, unique attribute that no other car has. And you'll be able to use it forever, or at least until humans learn how to teleport.

But these weapons aren't good forever. They are frequently surpassed by other weapons, only to be brought back into usefulness by later updates if at all and none of that is guaranteed. Not only that, but they are job specific and jobs frequently fall out of favor as well. And in many cases, the only unique thing about them is more damage. The only time SE has guaranteed anything about these weapons is when they said that they didn't plan to update them past 119, which they have apparently changed their minds about. These weapons have about as much job security as the cast of game of thrones.

And lets not forget that SE may just decide to pull a fast one and decide that you have to kill the new delve mega boss who chain spells death and is immune to stun 10,000 times to upgrade your RME weapon next update just so it can be on par with (and in some cases behind) whatever weapons they add.

[detlef]

But these weapons aren't good forever. They are frequently surpassed by other weapons, only to be brought back into usefulness by later updates if at all and none of that is guaranteed. Not only that, but they are job specific and jobs frequently fall out of favor as well. And in many cases, the only unique thing about them is more damage. The only time SE has guaranteed anything about these weapons is when they said that they didn't plan to update them past 119, which they have apparently changed their minds about. These weapons have about as much job security as the cast of game of thrones.

It's true that there will be times when the weapons aren't 100% best in slot when newer gear is released. I left that part out because it didn't help my narrative (oho). Still, they will always be a competitive option and the best weapons to use when doing the events that drop the new and better stuff. Also, many of the weapons have unique characteristics that will likely keep them relevant perpetually (Yagrush, Carnwenhan, Burtgang, and Nirvana come to mind immediately).

Aside from that, SE has said that these weapons will be kept current. Not 100% of the time, no, but a good deal of the time. What other item in the game represents such a solid and essentially permanent investment?

And lets not forget that SE may just decide to pull a fast one and decide that you have to kill the new delve mega boss who chain spells death and is immune to stun 10,000 times to upgrade your RME weapon next update just so it can be on par with (and in some cases behind) whatever weapons they add.

If Pluton/Beitetsu/Boulders are any indication, the upgrade process will seem daunting at first but will soon become trivial compared to earlier upgrade stages. Or it could be exactly as you said. However, if your prediction comes true, a huge portion of the population will be up in arms because it affects Relic and Empyrean weapons in addition to Mythics.

As an aside, you know what I liked about the 119 ilvl process? Upgrade items dropped from everything. People did WKR just to get them. People farmed Delve field NMs just to get them. And there was real money to be made for everybody, casuals and hardcores alike. Eventually SE added them to Hard Mode BCs and the prices tanked. But before that happened, players had a really nice money-maker and in the end, you could upgrade your weapon for dirt cheap if you were patient enough.

[Malithar]

But these weapons aren't good forever. They are frequently surpassed by other weapons, only to be brought back into usefulness by later updates if at all and none of that is guaranteed.

Your definition of "frequently" is pretty out of the norm there. They were outclassed for a short time twice, once when Empys were a thing and had magian trials taking them further than relics or mythics, and again at the launch of SoE.

Not only that, but they are job specific and jobs frequently fall out of favor as well. And in many cases, the only unique thing about them is more damage.

"Many cases" as in DD mythics. And besides, they actually don't have more damage, they have less. The strength of a DD mythic comes from it's JA enhance and it's AM3, nothing else. If you don't or can't maintain AM3, DD wise you will likely get more from some other 119 weapon. The only DD mythic that's just flat out better than anything else is Blm's, as it's nuking stats are far and above better than anything else available. Smns? Well augged Pet: MAB staff wins on magical BPs. I haven't kept up to date to know if the loss of the 2 levels is worth the switch though. All others are riding on their JA or other benefit, Whm, Pld, Brd, etc.

The only time SE has guaranteed anything about these weapons is when they said that they didn't plan to update them past 119, which they have apparently changed their minds about.

Do you keep up with what they say? Here, lemme help.

The development team will be looking into upgrading R/M/E gear once they have implemented item level 120+. With that said, please understand that we have no concrete details to share in regards to when this (R/M/E upgrades & Item Level 120+) will be happening; just know that there are plans in the works!

That's just the most recent quote. Matsui also said himself (or Camate in a translation) back when they were first revamped that going forward, when the ilvl cap increases, so will RMEs. There might be another short period where they can't be upgraded, or perhaps you do need the new highest tier content cleared, but honestly, so what?

And lets not forget that SE may just decide to pull a fast one and decide that you have to kill the new delve mega boss who chain spells death and is immune to stun 10,000 times to upgrade your RME weapon next update just so it can be on par with (and in some cases behind) whatever weapons they add.

That's as bad of a point to make as Afania calling you out about your name, or wtfever that discussion is about.

The past several pages have been you grasping at straws trying to justify why mythic's requirements should be lessened. You've danced around "they're not worth it" all the way to "the shouldn't take so long." Yet plenty before you, and plenty after you, have, and will, complete them. Either get on board the train for whatever mythic you want, or stop your QQing and focus on other content more suited to your tastes. As you (I think it was you? I'm not bothering to check) said, changing the requirements would be an easy task. The issue is, getting them already IS an easy task, if you're motivated to do so. And everyone of detlef's points stands, if you want it bad enough, get it.

[Afania]

Because if you were doing it just for the reward, you would do delve. If you were doing it for the content you would do... basically anything that seemed fun. You are doing it for exclusivity. You want the item to remain exclusive. Challenging enough that you can do it, but not so much that the average joe can do it. You want to have something just for you and not for everyone else. Your motives are selfish and have nothing to do with the longevity of the game or keeping old players or any of the other justifications you've attempted.

After pages and pages of argument about game design fundamentals, I still don't understand why you insist that playing a video game and following video game's "game designer design a goal, player go after that goal" is equal to "selfish". There are just zero connection between them.

By your logic, Nintendo made a game called Mario, 90% of my friends/family can't beat Mario, then they can ask Nintendo to nerf the difficulty of Mario. If someone that's against the idea of Mario difficulty nerf then he/she is "selfish"?

If you think the game is too difficult/tedious w/e to a point that you can't beat or obtain and you'd rather not do, just play another game or in FFXI's case, aim for another goal. Why are you asking the game difficulty to be nerfed so some ppl that enjoyed it no longer get to enjoy it?

I think you're just as "selfish" to ask for a difficulty nerf. Only Mrkillface can change the game to what he like and still not "selfish", but I can't present my opinion about a better game because I'm "selfish"?

...But we're not arguing about taking away the reward. We're arguing about accessibility. No one has suggested removing mythics from the game in this thread.

Technically, yes. Changing the amount of effort required for an item is basically changing the nature of the reward. Obtaining a delve2 weapon isn't nearly as satisfying as obtaining a RME, and this isn't my opinion only. Most players in this game has the same opinion about RME.

If you were just doing it for the reward, you wouldn't care if I worked harder than you to get it or not. You have other thinly veiled motives for your arguments.

Why'd SE ban RMT and fish bot? Why would you care if other player get gil/items faster than you with less work? Why would you want to work harder for less?

In MMO, creating a fair environment for every player does matter.

Game design fundamental 101: If the game sucks, nobody cares about the reward. If your flawed view of this rule were even remotely true, then final fantasy would have a billion customers throwing money at the devs to make the mythic quests even harder.

Not sure why you suddenly want to use billion customer as an example to argue against current Mythic. By your logic if SE make Mythic obtainable in 1 day FF11 would have billion customers too.

When a reward is obviously unobtainable, most people don't even try.

You said you have a LS full of mythic owners, then proceed to say "most ppl don't even try"? Ok

Mrkillface doesn't even try*, fixed for you.

I mean maybe you only play one job, hate very other job and are just out of stuff to do for that job. But then you should be asking for more content. Not trying to keep other people from getting on your level.

I did ask for more content, but it's a proven fact that SE isn't going to create that much content. Also I'm not the only one that's only interested in 1~2 mythics. There are other ppl that's not interested in creating 20 mythics, and instead they're looking for some sense of accomplishment after obtaining one. By making Mythics faster to obtain there are no sense of accomplishment for them after they're done.

Since you view Mythic as a complete waste of time, I don't think you'd understand what Mythic meant to be for a lot of ppl anyways. IMO, mythic as obtainable as delve2 weapon just isn't acceptable, and it has nothing to do with myself being selfish/wanting exclusive item or not. Even if I don't have one I'd still say the same. There are plenty of items I do not have, such as Dring. I've never ask for difficulty nerf just so that I can get it. There are plenty of stuff I choose not to get it because I think it suck, such as new skirmish weapon augment, even then I only pointed out the flaws in the design but I still didn't ask for a difficulty nerf.

Keep playing "you're selfish" card all you want, I'm going to counter with the same card.....you're selfish if you ask for a difficulty nerf for any item/accomplishment.

Btw, not sure why are you playing rl card here. I don't have a damn about how you do irl nor asking you to prove anything to me, I'm explaining the game design fundamentals to you and apparently you failed to understand repeatly.

[Vanfrano]

They will probably add new RME-type weapons for each job by the end of Adoulin storyline, then ease getting a Mythic after a while. I don't think they will do away with long-term goals anyway.

[Afania]

Mrkillface, let me break down some facts for you:

1)
I want a long term goal for ppl that wants to play more than 3 months, and the goals co-exist with short term goals. So everyone gets appropriate goals.

You want Mythics for everyone.

And somehow I'm "selfish" but you're not? Ok.

2)
You argue that "nobody" want to do a mythic, today when I log on I saw 90% of my friends/ls working on one, some has multiple mythics already.

Nice try, apparently we're playing different games.

3)
You argue that I'm defending for mythic requirement because I want my items to be "exclusive". If you search the forum you can probably find a post of mine defending for harder mythic requirement BEFORE I own one. I don't own Dring but I'm against free pops in log in campaign, I don't own afterglow but I'm against afterglow difficulty nerf, I don't have capped JP in all category but I'm against JP grind being too fast.

I don't defend for harder requirement based on what I need nor wanting my items to be exclusive, I defend for harder requirement in this game based on the fact that I believe MMORPG with a monthly fee should take longer to make progress, IMO current FFXI's pace is too fast. Whether you agree with this POV or not is another issue, but stop trying to change my motive into something else just so that you can win this internet argument.