Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Balloon]

Ballon

This always hurts.

I don't even think party leader should start shouting for other jobs. You don't have to look further than GEO and RDM for this, they've got incredible buffs and may, in some situations, be better than a whm/brd combo. Don't even hear people shouting for RDM in rng parties on my server. I don't think it's going to happen, and I've already said in another thread that I think that 6 man content is incredibly prohibitive.

That said, my argument has always been that I want to have the idea of going on lesser known jobs less laughed at. Going to PUP for anything harder than Delve 1 Morimar is kind of a kick in the teeth for the 5 other party members that have to carry you along for your insane whim. This includes setting up your own parties. It's possible, but the quality of the people have to be higher than if you went with other pugs. Can you even imagine what shouting for a pug puppetmaster would look like? ugh.

I'd go COR or WHM everytime, because I don't want to be 'that guy'. I want it so that if I decided pup I wouldn't have to be 'that guy.'

'Hey guys, I'm gonna go pup if that's okay!'

Fun, but who likes being carried?

(Polygon posted some Pikachi gifs, I really wanted to use one.)

[Karbuncle]

Yessss, this so much. ^
If someone shouts for DD, more than likely they're not looking for my PUP, DRG, or BLU. So I don't even bother.
If someone shouts for healing magic/support, they're not looking for SMN or DNC.
It's really sad.
The thought of leveling/skilling/learning and gearing BRD WHM RNG PLD SAM in a way that would satisfy people's expectations seems rather daunting and stressful to me, and I'm just not interested in it.

I have to disagree, but only very little... at least on the PUP/DRG/BLU front... I used to get invited to things on PUP (before I had better geared DD) by letting them know I was well geared and had a 119 weapon with caped automaton skills. Gimp DD ruin runs, no matter what job they're on, but a good PUP or BLU can be very good in the right situations, you just have to convince the shouter of that. Not every shouter will accept you, because as Draylo said sometimes they just want SAM ONRY cause its the quickest route to victory... but always try, its gotten me in more than a few times.

Anywho...

[Afania]

I have to disagree, but only very little... at least on the PUP/DRG/BLU front... I used to get invited to things on PUP (before I had better geared DD) by letting them know I was well geared and had a 119 weapon with caped automaton skills. Gimp DD ruin runs, no matter what job they're on, but a good PUP or BLU can be very good in the right situations, you just have to convince the shouter of that. Not every shouter will accept you, because as Draylo said sometimes they just want SAM ONRY cause its the quickest route to victory... but always try, its gotten me in more than a few times.

Anywho...

Quickest route to victory on paper, in reality most of the SAM you can find from PUG isn't going to outparse an elite PUP BLU and DNC.

[Vinedrai]

My whm has no gear set other than max cure pot and idle refresh stuff but pugs never question my versatility. Same goes for mnks, sams, rngs are brds. For example, barely anyone asks if you have a DT set. Usually, they don't even ask if you have some acc gear. As long as you are on the "right" job and got a 119 weapon or, in case of brd, 3-4 song harp, you are perfectly acceptable for the most part.

Edit: No matter how well geared and skilled you are on, say, BLU, you are still perceived as a burden to the group. Most people are just so desperate for cookie cutter setups. It doesn't matter if you can spam aoe erase, reliably inflict def down, stun where you can etc. It is all about having the basic gear in today's standards, a 119 weapon and the "right" job.

[Afania]

My whm has no gear set other than max cure pot and idle refresh stuff but pugs never question my versatility. Same goes for mnks, sams, rngs are brds. Barely anyone asks if you have a DT set, they don't even ask if you have some acc gear. As long as you are on the "right" job and got a 119 weapon or, in case of brd, 3-4 song harp.

Edit: No matter how well geared and skilled you are on, say, BLU, you are still perceived as a burden to the group. Most people are just so desperate for cookie cutter setups. It doesn't matter if you can spam aoe erase, reliably inflict def down, stun where you can etc. It is all about having the basic gear in today's standards, a 119 weapon and the "right" job.

That's why 90% of the PUG on my server fails 24/7, lol. I'm not sure if "how other ppl perceived the job" is relevant in this discussion. Most of the time a PUG leader pick job over gear/skill tend to fail because they lack the fundamental understanding of the game mechanic.

I wouldn't bother to join a pt like this tbh. Most of the time I'd explain how none cookie cutter job can work just fine by explaining the game mechanic, if they accept the suggestion then it usually has a chance to win, if they don't then 90% of time the pt tend to fail with perfect setup. This is fact since I often stalk PUG leader on my server about their PUG success rate. The leader that only /shout for cookie cutter job, didn't gear check and refuse to listen to suggestions tend to fail, a lot.

On the other hand, ppl with good understand of game mechanic often accept none cookie cutter jobs and do better than a perfect setup. The real "elitist" which refuse to pt with any less efficient jobs usually don't /shout.

I never understand why ppl are so eager to get accepted by every PUG leader.

[Afania]

On the other hand, I have experienced rejection or been ignored, even without having to go through some kind of gear-check or interrogation of my skills. So I just gave up. (I am on console, I have never parsed myself, I have no idea where I stand from job to job, and I haven't been fortunate to get the best weapons for BLU and DNC.)

Personally, I interrogate/gear-check every job when I make PUG, including SAM and MNK, unless I know the ppl. I believe it's leader's responsibility to filter ppl.

I also interrogate/gear-check/baby sit BRD and WHM, to make sure they don't full time JSE harp.

If you think gear-check and interrogation is job discrimination, then it's not really the case.

I wouldn't invite a BLU nor DNC without 119 weapon unless they're a friend, so does SAM and MNK. DD spot is competitive enough, every /shout can get you 10 /tell from 119 DDs, it's very easy to find a rep. It doesn't matter if you're a SAM or MNK or BLU, no spot for a 115 DD unless it's a friend needing clear. This is barely a job issue.

[Vinedrai]

I'm not sure if "how other ppl perceived the job" is relevant in this discussion.

It is relevant because most people don't have static groups they can run events with. It is a must for too many people to chase after PUGs or make one yourself. You can always bring an inferior DD but you can't go without a healer to anything or a pld for some AA or w/e

I never understand why ppl are so eager to get accepted by every PUG leader.

They don't want to be accepted by every PUG leader, they want to play the job they enjoy while still being relevant. To make their own group to play what they want, they need to be relevant for that role. Even friends won't be happy if you seriously tell them you want to go pup to delve.

[Malithar]

Ummm, the above post offered an idea of "fix" through a new design/redesign of content and a fix of pet jobs mechanic, instead of saying current content can fit pet jobs in.

For the entire thread I've been saying design game content so hybrid get an advantage is better than changing hybrid and turn it into more SAM.

I'm not sure how the concept of "change role" in a raid is equal to increase dmg output, honestly it's not necessary equal to increased output.

I believe in order to fix BST, pet's dmg and mechanics needs to be changed(instead of master's) They also need some other utility that makes a difference. If they can get AoE WS as strong as fell cleave, or survive ability close to PLD, and ranged dmg close to RNG, it can be a pretty useful hybrid even in delve.

I'm pretty sure the bolded is exactly that, an increase in damage output. Not that I think that'd be an actual fix, it'd just go in the wrong direction.

Technically you can "tank" majority of the content on DD jobs already, but that doesn't make them hybrid since that's not really tanking.

And pet jobs technically aren't DDs it seems, so what makes them a hybrid?

Serious question, not counting skillchain dmg(come on, every job can skillchain)exactly which job in this game can't do more than 50% of another DD.

So when looking at these "hybrid" jobs, should we ignore the "utility" that's no longer part of the game that they bring? Cause not counting SCs is ignoring a very large benefit that Sam has. A Tsuru Sam in Adoulin or Mythic Sam is weakened by more DDs due to SC interruption. Sure, it takes a specialized setup and very good gear to make it work, but the fact that it does makes the masses flock to it. Why would you bring a DD that, by your numbers, is 65%ish of the Sam's base DD (ignoring SCs) that will further hamper him?

I thought GEO can do over 50% of SAM according to you. I highly doubt BLM can't do over 50% of SAM when GEO can, unless the mob downright resist magic.

The numbers you're thinking of is Geo/Dnc meleeing on fights such as Ouryu VD, Tenzen VD, and Shadow Lord VD, and it was against a mythic Mnk. In content where magic damage works, it varies on the setup and what exactly the content is, one shotting Skirmish mobs doesn't really leave room for them to get in any licks, while nuking Dho CP mobs can easily keep up if not surpass them as long as they're not riding AM3 very well.

[Balloon]

Not counting Skillchain damage? I mean, christ, right off the bat SAM is getting +16% skillchain damage over everything not NIN MNK and DNC, and the fact that pump out WS faster, can self sc frequently, and use a weaponskill that skillchains of the back of itself doesn't help. Skillchains got a huge buff last update, it's part of the reason SAM is as good as it is now.

SAM's central gimmick is that it accumulates TP and can WS at a really fast rate. It's more suited to skillchaining than most other jobs.

You keep saying that 65% number like it's something we should hold preciously onto because, in the words of Groot "It's better than 64% [I am Groot.]" and that's 119 recommended content, the story gets a little more jaded when you have to factor in the B H2H we have, the fact that if we're not eating petfood our pets are useless and the fact that anything beyond Delve 1 (ilvl12..8? something around there) is a little less forgiving on jobs like that..

Our pets have equivalent A Skills, which was how that balance was supposed to be maintained. But they also have a base of 770 acc with divinator. It's pitiful. It's embarrasing. It can't be buffed with anything but GEO Eva- and RDM Eva- or god forbid, pet rolls. Or like +20 acc with 3 thunder maneuvers, the cost of which eats so rapidly into our dps that it's not worth doing. That's a balance we have to maintain, we can hamper ourselves to boost our pets. That's kind of a neat mechanic, but it doesn't work currently. There should be an ideal threshold, probably changing via content, where as a team we can be potent.

[Afania]

I'm pretty sure the bolded is exactly that, an increase in damage output. Not that I think that'd be an actual fix, it'd just go in the wrong direction.

I think you missed the point that the important part is to switch how the job functions without going back to your mog house. RNG can do ranged dmg but they can't AoE, WAR BLU can AoE but they can't do ranged dmg. BLM can do both AoE and ranged dmg, but it's magical dmg. If the content requires both ranged physical and AoE dmg for an efficient run, a job that's capable of switching job role can get an unique benefit, which makes it different from SAM.

AoE dmg or ranged dmg doesn't necessary mean "increase in dmg output" btw. For example, if pet job A can do 100 dps, 40 from pet, 60 from melee, it can also do 10 AoE dps. V.S another melee job that can do 180 dps. Technically on ranged mode it can only do 40 dps instead of 100, which isn't a dmg increase. However, the melee job with 180 dps can't engage due to AoE, thus it can't beat 40 dps.

So there, you get the 40 dps job in ranged mode killing faster than 180 dps job.

Against 6 mobs it can do 60 AoE dps total, which isn't increased dmg either. But if you can kill each mob with 2 WS, resulting faster kill speed than another job doing 200 dps but engage and kill the target one by one.

Of course current FFXI content isn't designed that way, to require a role change mid run. IMO they should. It's a better design direction than having 22 jobs doing the exactly same DPS with less variety.

And pet jobs technically aren't DDs it seems, so what makes them a hybrid?

Different game mechanic? I'm not sure why do you(and some ppl in this thread) insist that a job must fulfill a specific category in a pt, and if a job deals dmg it's DD role or bust.

I suppose that's the issue of WoW DD/tank/healer forumla brainwashing ppl so players can no longer jump out of the WoW design logic >.>

So when looking at these "hybrid" jobs, should we ignore the "utility" that's no longer part of the game that they bring? Cause not counting SCs is ignoring a very large benefit that Sam has. A Tsuru Sam in Adoulin or Mythic Sam is weakened by more DDs due to SC interruption. Sure, it takes a specialized setup and very good gear to make it work, but the fact that it does makes the masses flock to it. Why would you bring a DD that, by your numbers, is 65%ish of the Sam's base DD (ignoring SCs) that will further hamper him?

I still think boosting SC dmg is a wrong design direction and it should be fixed. The reason why I said "not counting SC" in the calculation is because 1) It is still possible to have 2 DD doing double dark/light. 2) It's easier to calculate.

Either way, if anything I think boosting the SC dmg isn't a good design and it's certainly against the original design concept of this game. This concept works at lv 30 or 50 something when everyone TP slower, thus WS coordination for SC works. Now that we TP so fast, having multiple DD trying to do SC ended up doing less dmg.

As you can see, I advocate sophisticated game design instead of lazy easy fix solution. Boosting BST and make it the same as SAM is a lazy easy fix solution, that's not balance, it's bad design. Redesign tanking/raid and SC system to accomplish true job balance is a better design.