Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Mitruya]

Yessss, this so much. ^
If someone shouts for DD, more than likely they're not looking for my PUP, DRG, or BLU. So I don't even bother.
If someone shouts for healing magic/support, they're not looking for SMN or DNC.
It's really sad.
The thought of leveling/skilling/learning and gearing BRD WHM RNG PLD SAM in a way that would satisfy people's expectations seems rather daunting and stressful to me, and I'm just not interested in it.

[Aeron]

I don't think you understand the real reason behind "SAM or bust" mentality then. SAM or bust mentality came from the group of so called "elitists" who would proceed to argue the "most efficient" setup in this game. If they can do a zone with 3 char, they wouldn't do with 6. If they can do a zone in 20 min, they wouldn't do in 25.

Then they proceed to advocate X setup on the forum, while pretending utility doesn't help one single bit to the group. So the rest of the community visit the forum, copied and pasted the setup on the forum, and it slowly turned into "SAM or bust" mentality.

You can argue that SAM and MNK that can do same dmg as BLU would't be useless because lolutility, but this is incorrect. In most cases utility plays a very important role when pushing pt's efficiency to a higher lv. I can explain why, please see below:





The bolded part is incorrect, it's not that "the player base could care less about utility", but it's more about "what job/pt setup is the most efficient". Players doesn't care about utility because utility doesn't bring efficiency when the gap is too big. Once you eliminate the gap, utility WILL bring higher efficiency.

That means, a setup that can clear delve in 20 min is superior to a pt that can clear delve in 25 min. In most cases, output isn't the only factor that determine the clear speed.

In the case of 700k dmg BLU v.s 700k dmg SAM, if you don't count the dmg from SC(since we're assuming both jobs do same dmg and we're only comparing the advantage of utility), a pt with BLU will clear a lot faster than a pt of SAM.

There are several reasons for this:

1. A pt of BLU rotating harden shell for def+100% means BLU no longer has to turtle while meleeing. While SAMs has to sacrifice output to TP in hybrid TP set and deal less than 700k dmg when they need to, BLU can maintain low dmg taken AND go all out for dmg.

2. BLU still has additional def down, which will provide more dmg than 700k.

3. A pt of BLU can also rotate and maintain haste2 without the need of RDM. Therefore, you can change pt setup or buffs for more efficient run. For example, you can use 4 BLU + BRD WHM instead of 3 SAM+BRD+RDM and still get all the benefit from RDM. You can use 1 march + 2~3 min instead of 2 marches and 1~2 min. With the benefit from def+, you may be able to use another healer job such as GEO or RDM instead of WHM, providing even greater total output.

4. You kill adds faster with AoE spells, instead of killing them one by one. And adds do take time to kill.

5. Against NM that spams AoE slow like crazy, such as wopket, a pt with BLU can erase much faster than a pt with no BLU, resulting higher killing speed.

6. You can rotate stun/terror on NM that can land terror, certain NM's WS move can reduce kill speed because of AoE stun, slow and such. If you don't let the NM use their moves, your kill speed will increase because you no longer have to deal with them.

7. Against NM that can amnesia, BLU will also do A LOT more dmg thanks to new spell formula and higher DPS.

The result is, using a pt of 700k dmg BLU will provide much greater efficiency than a pt of 700k dmg SAM. The elitists will once again, show off on the forum about how easy the content is with a pt of BLU thanks to all that stun/terror and free haste2, while the rest of the community copy and paste the same setup and go "SAM or gtfo".

This isn't balance, this is bad design. BLU shouldn't do same lv of dmg as SAM, ever. If SAM can do 700k, BLU only worth 500k~600k.

Note that according to some quick spreadsheet, not counting SC dmg, a delve BLU using def down spell showed about 70%+ of delve SAM's dmg under the same buff. I think that's not counting spell dmg either.

If a pt of SAMx3 can clear yorcia in 20 min, on paper a pt BLUx3 would need to spend 1.3~1.4 times to clear yorcia, which means 28 min max.

If you're going to argue that jobs can only accomplish true balance through the same output because you can't tolerate clearing the content 8 min slower in a 45 min event, then idk what to say. Personally, I didn't have an issue getting invite on BLU when delve was 18 man and my gear was ok.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can't contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg, maybe you need to work harder.

If your group doesn't invite you because your BLU can only contribute 70% of your SAM's dmg and that doesn't meet their standard because utility is "useless", you either need new friends or just make your own pt.

If you insist that 70% of SAM's dmg isn't acceptable that you must see 100% of SAM's dmg, gl. I'm happy with BLU's current output, personally. The benefit of haste2, def down, none elemental dmg, def+100% and stuns out weight the 30% dmg gap, but that's just my personal opinion.

Awesome post really outlines the right way to think about the game in its current form.

[Afania]

Because that situation doesn't exist? 2/3 of the "fixes" you mentioned above revolve around what pet jobs are asking for, [i]increased damage output to better compete with other DDs.

Ummm, the above post offered an idea of "fix" through a new design/redesign of content and a fix of pet jobs mechanic, instead of saying current content can fit pet jobs in.

For the entire thread I've been saying design game content so hybrid get an advantage is better than changing hybrid and turn it into more SAM.

I'm not sure how the concept of "change role" in a raid is equal to increase dmg output, honestly it's not necessary equal to increased output.

I'm not sure what's wrong with hybrid in a MMO. I think WAR and SAM was originally designed as tank job, SE just decided to turn them into DD. I don't think it's fair to brought up the tanking issue when it comes to hybrid discussion anyways. The "tank" design in FFXI is currently still broken, you can do the majority of the content without it. Technically you can "tank" majority of the content on DD jobs already, but that doesn't make them hybrid since that's not really tanking.

[Afania]

Yessss, this so much. ^
If someone shouts for DD, more than likely they're not looking for my PUP, DRG, or BLU. So I don't even bother.
If someone shouts for healing magic/support, they're not looking for SMN or DNC.
It's really sad.
The thought of leveling/skilling/learning and gearing BRD WHM RNG PLD SAM in a way that would satisfy people's expectations seems rather daunting and stressful to me, and I'm just not interested in it.

I offered COR whenever I see ppl /shout for a DD and often still get in, I've seen ppl offered DNC when I /shout for a DD. I'm not sure why you wouldn't offer PUP DRG BLU.

I've invited unpopular DD such as DNC because I know he can parse high, on the other hand I've denied plenty of SAM and MNK to join my pt cuz I know they parse low. I've even denied ls/friend SAM and MNK for joining because they parse low.

For the entire thread all I see is a lot of complain about "I don't get invite unless I'm SAM" "No way I'd get invite because I"m not SAM" before even try. Unless I'm playing different game it seems exaggerating.

[Afania]

And before the whole argument of job change comes back round, I agree, you should have multiple jobs leveled to fill whatever the situation may need. However, all jobs should be capable of performing at some sort of a baseline as well. Well below 50% of another DD's output is not cutting it.

Serious question, not counting skillchain dmg(come on, every job can skillchain)exactly which job in this game can't do more than 50% of another DD.

A job that's obviously designed for support nor have access to large offensive JA/spell/gears doesn't count. So BRD doesn't count.

You also have to compare jobs in same lv of gear, so none mythic SAM v.s another none mythic DD etc.

I haven't check spreadsheet for every job yet, but for the entire thread, everyone kept exaggerate and pull numbers out of nowhere to support their argument about "X job needs a buff".

First there's someone claiming PUP is lower than 50% of SAM, but it really doesn't seem so based on the parse result I had with PUP and spreadsheet. More like PUP is over 65% of SAM.

Then there's someone claiming BLU suck, but BLU is still around 65% of sam before def down, with def down it's easily 70%.

I'm pretty sure both DNC and COR can do well over 60% of SAM as well.

I thought GEO can do over 50% of SAM according to you. I highly doubt BLM can't do over 50% of SAM when GEO can, unless the mob downright resist magic.

Even a tank job like RUN with slightly less offensive JA than above jobs can do 60% of SAM without needing an ergon weapon.

Exactly which job can't do over 50% of SAM? Again, it's fine if you want a buff for your jobs, but it's not fine to twist the fact to support your argument. Most of the time, if a job can't do over 50% of another DD, it's because the player isn't playing well nor they care.

[Balloon]

Corsair can dd and buff. It is more than the sum of it's parts. If anything, while I don't like the idea of hybrid jobs, I think Corsair is hybridization done correctly. Two components, that, on their own are not worth a party slot, but when combined are quite potent.
Beastmaster and Puppetmaster can do nothing but DD, poorly.

If someone invited a PUP or BST they are reducing the chance they win. If you're doing 65% of the damage (also dubious about that) of some other dd then the fight goes on longer, more chances something can go wrong, more chance of failure. It is completely understandable why some people don't accept certain jobs, and why some people don't even feel the desire to ask if they can go as that job. I don't want to be the reason someone fails, and I don't want to get a reputation of the guy that spams /tells with "Please let me go puppetmaster."

'Pet Job' is not a classification of a job. You cannot do 'Pet' to an enemy; you can deal damage to an enemy via a pet. Pet job is a sub-section of the DD role, and as such it should be able to compete as one. I don't think the master should be doing all the damage, I think the pets should be near 30-40% of the damage of the combination. Currently pets parse at less than 5% and have floored hit rates when not using food, and probably around 70-80% hit rates when using Pet Food. There's another area where pets fall short. The need to eat pet food in order to have your pet even be contributing. On situations where your acc is naturally capped you're missing out on a heap of attack to eat something inferior.

Potential and Reality are two entirely different things. The argument shouldn't really be focused around X player who does more damage than Y player. The argument is more ideal X cannot compete with ideal Y.

I think it's a very noble idea to create content that appeals to all the jobs seperately, but I think that it's a pipe dream when the development team is as small as it is, and frankly as ignorant of how the game is currently played. I also don't think the idea of buffing some of the more neglected jobs to be competitive and content that favors jobs is mutually exclusive. Jobs could be at a relative (not equal) baseline and then be 10-20% better in X event.

In the end, I think that buffing jobs would bring back at least a modicum of variety to the game. If shouts don't change, and they probably won't, at least I can suggest going PUP or BST with friends, or set my own run up on those jobs without feeling like I am a burden to others. This is a social game, and it is not in the best interest of others currently to go on some jobs.

I keep hearing the argument 'if I wanted jobs to be balanced I'd go play FFXIV.' Which kind of neglects the thousands of differences between the game. I think FFXI has better gear variety, more methodical, calculated combat, a more interesting story and world. More interesting mechanics vis-a-vis gear swapping. I do think that FFXIV has things that are executed better, though.
The stubborn refusal to identify when one game does something better is why FFXIV-1.0 was such a disaster.

[Afania]

Corsair can dd and buff. It is more than the sum of it's parts. If anything, while I don't like the idea of hybrid jobs, I think Corsair is hybridization done correctly. Two components, that, on their own are not worth a party slot, but when combined are quite potent.
Beastmaster and Puppetmaster can do nothing but DD, poorly.

If someone invited a PUP or BST they are reducing the chance they win. If you're doing 65% of the damage (also dubious about that) of some other dd then the fight goes on longer, more chances something can go wrong, more chance of failure. It is completely understandable why some people don't accept certain jobs, and why some people don't even feel the desire to ask if they can go as that job. I don't want to be the reason someone fails, and I don't want to get a reputation of the guy that spams /tells with "Please let me go puppetmaster."

'Pet Job' is not a classification of a job. You cannot Pet an enemy to death. Pet job is a sub-section of the DD class, and as such it should be able to compete as one. I don't think the master should be doing all the damage, I think the pets should be near 30-40% of the damage of the combination. Currently pets parse at less than 5% and have floored hit rates when not using food, and probably around 70-80% hit rates when using Pet Food. There's another area where pets fall short. The need to eat pet food in order to have your pet even be contributing. On situations where your acc is naturally capped you're missing out on a heap of attack to eat something inferior.

Potential and Reality are two entirely different things. The argument shouldn't really be focused around X player who does more damage than Y player. The argument is more ideal X cannot compete with ideal Y.

I think it's a very noble idea to create content that appeases to all the classes seperately, but I think that it's a pipe dream when the development team is as small, and frankly as ignorant of how the game is currently played and how each class compete. I also don't think the idea of buffing some of the more neglected jobs to be competitive and content that favors jobs is mutually exclusive. Jobs could be at a relative (not equal) baseline and then be 10-20% better in X event.

In the end, I think that buffing jobs would bring back at least a modicum of variety to the game. If shouts don't change, and they probably won't, at least I can suggest going PUP or BST with friends, or set my own run up on those jobs without feeling like I am a burden to others. This is a social game, and it is not in the best interest of others currently to go on some jobs.

A run that takes longer doesn't necessary means more failure. If you roll with PUG foret, they wipe very often due to support can't erase on megaboss properly. With debuff on, massive magical dmg and DD TP while spike on, it's very easy to wipe.

If you use BLU or RUN, it'd make the run a lot smoother due to the extra magic def+ from them, and BLU's AoE erase ability.

And yes I've seen ppl /shout for a BLU for foret just for AoE erase because WHM can't do the job.

Saying "longer run is bad" is nothing but elitist way of thinking. AoE erase and AoE def+ is only useless when you pt with very good support, in real life it's a lot more beneficial than you'd think.

Also, you agree that making BST not useless through different design content approach or redesign pet job ability is a good idea, but you don't agree it's doable? SE just revived RDM without turning RDM into WHM like how community been asking for years. It's not that hard to make BST PUP useful without turning them into SAM.

[Balloon]

Saying that a longer run is bad is elitist? I don't see how, all I'm saying is that when a run goes on longer you are increasing the chances that something goes wrong. This might be different if you were increasing the length of the run to bring some damage mitigation to the table, like including a RUN - In the beastmaster example it brings nothing but a lower DD output.

I should really keep count of the amount of times you've accused me of wanting PUP and BST to become sam, because it is comical now. I'll repeat though I don't want BST or PUP to be sam . I want war to do more damage too. And DRG. You know what I don't want them to be either? SAM. Wanting something to do more damage is not the same as wanting it to be a samurai. They play differently. Why shouldn't a pet jobs pet be more effective if that's the thing that the whole job is centered around?

I'm not asking for something stupid, I don't want pets to be invincible, or overpowered. Beastmaster and puppetmaster have some very vulnerable spawn that cannot be enhanced like a party member, cannot be healed via traditional means and are susceptible to dying easily. If they were as potent as a sam, bringing them would still be more risky than bringing a samurai because you have a high chance of losing a significant portion of your damage at a drop of a hat. You have to upkeep and maintain your pets. With such an emphasis placed on the maintenance of these elements, why shouldn't they be doing more or equal damage to the master, or at least a significant proportion of damage.

I don't know how many people were asking for RDM to become the new WHM. I think a lot of people wanted there to be a greater emphasis on their previous best strengths, which was Enhancing (Haste II, Frazzle) and Enfeebling. Which is what was enhanced.

I want a beastmasters buff to be focused on the pet. But the pets only function is to do deal damage. For a beastmaster, that is what their buff would be without a fundamental reworking of the job.

For Puppetmaster? Who knows, I think a big portion of what we do in parties is deal damage. We use the ranger frame. The other frames aren't exactly effective in any other scenario. If our boon was having a frame that provided maybe some geo style buffs to other members? I'd be kind of okay with that. They'd have to be as potent as COR buffs though, or geo buffs. Something that makes puppetmaster greater than the sum of it's parts. Because at the minute the sum of it's parts are an incredible frail, weak mess that provide no benefit to a party.

[Draylo]

As long as 6 man content is the norm, you won't see people straying from "SAM only." You can and always could have used other jobs to fill a DD spot, typically people will choose the best and least easiest to mess up when doing a PUG. 6 man parties are very restrictive, even more so for 3 man which people are doing lately for delve. Everyone clamored for this, so you either have to start your own parties or just accept it. Nerfing SAM probably won't change that much either, they need to have a reason for other jobs to be there to DD.

[Mitruya]

I offered COR whenever I see ppl /shout for a DD and often still get in, I've seen ppl offered DNC when I /shout for a DD. I'm not sure why you wouldn't offer PUP DRG BLU.

I've invited unpopular DD such as DNC because I know he can parse high, on the other hand I've denied plenty of SAM and MNK to join my pt cuz I know they parse low. I've even denied ls/friend SAM and MNK for joining because they parse low.

For the entire thread all I see is a lot of complain about "I don't get invite unless I'm SAM" "No way I'd get invite because I"m not SAM" before even try. Unless I'm playing different game it seems exaggerating.

I have admitted and will continue to honestly admit when I am my own obstacle to participation - I am a shy person.
On the other hand, I have experienced rejection or been ignored, even without having to go through some kind of gear-check or interrogation of my skills. So I just gave up. (I am on console, I have never parsed myself, I have no idea where I stand from job to job, and I haven't been fortunate to get the best weapons for BLU and DNC.)
I've gotten the impression from in-game chats and forum posts that some jobs are JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Even if good players with good gear can bring in good utility while bypassing the drawbacks of JA delay/low HP/low defense/low pet acc and all that jazz and still get the job done. And sometimes it is just a matter of not already having the best of the best gear, so perfect cookie-cutter set-ups are done to ensure the win because our casual group isn't "good enough" or some such nonsense.
Balloon hit it on the head when he said that often party leaders are not looking for less efficient jobs, and we ourselves have to think about whether we want to bring the run down or be the one who always begs to come PUP or whatever.
I don't feel like starting from scratch leveling/skilling/gearing/learning a new job all over again. People also don't want an Abyssea-burned, under-skilled, sparks-geared noob in their endgame parties either. It would be nice if I could bring something useful to the table NOW, while people are actually doing the content. (other than being on COR, which isn't always needed)
"Longer run is bad" and "more risk with lesser jobs is bad" are attitudes that we have to deal with and some of us don't have the cajones to keep arguing with it or start our own parties.