[dev1216] Weapon Skill Adjustments

[Olor]

Thanks for the notes Byrth. Has anyone done math yet to guess which WS will be way more useful after the update? I'm interested in seeing what becomes more viable.

[Byrth]

These weaponskills are likely going to be even more useful now than they already were. Keep in mind that the exact "goodness" of each WS will depend on the exact changes that SE makes. They're really changing a lot, so the hierarchy could shift substantially. Anywhere that they're changing 100 TP fTP could be very important, but it's possible that SE will introduce much higher 200 TP fTPs that make it worthwhile to build TP instead of going 0->100 -> WS. We will have to see.

List of weaponskills may see some use:
* H2H - Victory Smite, Stringing Pummel, and Ascetic's Fury (last one could be a dark horse new-best-WS)
* Dagger - Evisceration for spamming (Mordant or Pyrrhic for the respective mythic users). Rudra's Storm, Mercy Stroke, and Mandalic Stab will be fighting for SA/TA opportunities. (Mandalic Stab dark horse)
* Sword - CDC is even better than it was. Atonement and Death Blossom have both improved quite a bit.
* Great Sword - Resolution and Torcleaver (uses are probably unchanged)
* Axe - Ruinator and Primal Rend (uses are probably unchanged, but Primal Rend will be very useful if level 75-style BST play ever comes back)
* Great Axe - Ukko's Fury, Metatron, and Upheaval all benefit (The real change this set of WSs needed was additional effect accuracy)
* Scythe - Catastrophe, Entropy, and Quietus (Quietus dark horse)
* Polearm - Drakesbane, Stardiver, and Camlann's Torment (Camlann's compliments DRG's defense down abilities and might not totally suck now)
* Katana - Blade: Hi, Shun, Ku, Kamu (Blade: Ku/Kamu dark horse)
* GKT - Tachi: Fudo and Shoha (Rana's changes are insufficient and Ageha's additional effect proc rate needs a boost)
* Club - Realmrazer (Mystic Boon will be useful in the same ways it always was)
* Staff - Vidohunir, Shattersoul (Vidohunir dark horse)
* Archery - Jishnu's Radiance, Apex Arrow, Namas Arrow (Namas isn't adjusted, but it will still be used)
* Marksmanship - Coronach, Trueflight, Leaden Salute (Mythic WSs dark horse)


If I was going to summarize the adjustments, I'd say that (with the exception of King's Justice, Insurgency, and Tachi: Rana) it looks like SE is buffing most Mythic weaponskills enough to make them competitive with the merit weaponskills. We aren't going to know just *how* buffed they are until tomorrow, so it's difficult to draw further conclusions. I would be supremely unsurprised if we found out that, for instance, Ascetic's Fury / Mandalic Stab / Leaden Salute / Trueflight / Blade: Kamu / Primal Rend / Death Blossom / etc. were all worth using now.

[Olor]

Thanks for the informed speculation Byrth! Looking forward to tomorrow.

[Camate]

Greetings,

I’m glad to see the excitement for these adjustments. How has everyone been finding the revamped weapon skills thus far?

I wanted to stop in here and point out some things about the weapon skill adjustments that were made yesterday in relation to NPCs.

• Enemy NPCs
  Certain enemies that use abilities that have the same name as the weapon skills that players use (Maat, Atori-Tutori, etc.) will also receive the effects from these adjustments.
  
  However, when it comes to the Ark Angels and shadow-type monsters in Adoulin areas, even though the abilities may have the same name, data-wise it has been set differently and they will not receive any effects from these adjustments.
  
  We will, however, be making adjustments to the enemies that have been affected by these adjustments in the July version update, and will be restoring them back to their original strength level.
  
  
• Adventuring fellows, alter egos, and other ally NPCs
  The weapon skills that adventuring fellows and Trust alter egos utilize will also receive the effects of these adjustments.
  
  Similarly, campaign ally NPCs are also affected at the moment; however, in the adjustments that are planned for the July version update we will be returning them to their original strength.

On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.

While I'm sure it's not possible for this update I'd really appreciate it if you could point out to the team that Knights of Round is severely underpowered right now compared to other Sword WSs, never is it better than it's Empyrean or Merit counterparts. As a result of this update the gap will grow even larger and this WS isn't being adjusted at all. I'm sure there are some others similar to this but I don't play anything but RDM anymore so I can't say for certain, that said I'm sure others will point out any I'm not aware of.

The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

[Aeron]

Greetings,

I’m glad to see the excitement for these adjustments. How has everyone been finding the revamped weapon skills thus far?

I wanted to stop in here and point out some things about the weapon skill adjustments that were made yesterday in relation to NPCs.

• Enemy NPCs
  Certain enemies that use abilities that have the same name as the weapon skills that players use (Maat, Atori-Tutori, etc.) will also receive the effects from these adjustments.
  
  However, when it comes to the Ark Angels and shadow-type monsters in Adoulin areas, even though the abilities may have the same name, data-wise it has been set differently and they will not receive any effects from these adjustments.
  
  We will, however, be making adjustments to the enemies that have been affected by these adjustments in the July version update, and will be restoring them back to their original strength level.
  
  
• Adventuring fellows, alter egos, and other ally NPCs
  The weapon skills that adventuring fellows and Trust alter egos utilize will also receive the effects of these adjustments.
  
  Similarly, campaign ally NPCs are also affected at the moment; however, in the adjustments that are planned for the July version update we will be returning them to their original strength.

On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.




The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

I'd like to ask how the DEV team plans to resolve the ongoing issues with enmity control for tanks and melee dds? With this update not only did melee dds get and increase in ws dmg but as an increase to tp/hit which will equate to and increase in ws frequency. The crusade spell is not sufficient enough at providing the necessary adjustment to enmity to be able to tank properly. While I like the increase in dmg potential the rate of enmity generation is even worst off now it seems then it ever was. What's the point in reducing the dmg/enmity ratio even to like 20% of normal if you have sams that can do 13k fudos it just doesn't make sense from a tanking perspective. Tanks and I mean all tanks need some form of hate lock mechanic to be able to perform its job without the use of rngs as well as the addition of hate control ja mechanics for all dds. The mechanic so should have so moderate form of cooldown such that its possible to reliably reduce a dds hate. I also suggest a enmity bar to asset players in this determination. I understand the problem of just increasing the hate cap for tanks, this is why I also suggest giving more dds the ability to innately control their own enmity lvls besides turning. Turning is one of the worst hate controlling mechanics in the game. To suggest that in the middle of a battle and you were to grab the attention of a powerful monster that you would turn your back to it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at least from my perspective.

[Damane]

I'd like to ask how the DEV team plans to resolve the ongoing issues with enmity control for tanks and melee dds? With this update not only did melee dds get and increase in ws dmg but as an increase to tp/hit which will equate to and increase in ws frequency. The crusade spell is not sufficient enough at providing the necessary adjustment to enmity to be able to tank properly. While I like the increase in dmg potential the rate of enmity generation is even worst off now it seems then it ever was. What's the point in reducing the dmg/enmity ratio even to like 20% of normal if you have sams that can do 13k fudos it just doesn't make sense from a tanking perspective. Tanks and I mean all tanks need some form of hate lock mechanic to be able to perform its job without the use of rngs as well as the addition of hate control ja mechanics for all dds. The mechanic so should have so moderate form of cooldown such that its possible to reliably reduce a dds hate. I also suggest a enmity bar to asset players in this determination. I understand the problem of just increasing the hate cap for tanks, this is why I also suggest giving more dds the ability to innately control their own enmity lvls besides turning. Turning is one of the worst hate controlling mechanics in the game. To suggest that in the middle of a battle and you were to grab the attention of a powerful monster that you would turn your back to it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at least from my perspective.

this isnt the only problem this update has thrown everything out of proportion and has imbalanced any kind of balance that was approaching.
- Enmity was thrown off more due to increased damage from melees (albeit enmity never worked properly before)
- Ranged attackers were thrown back a bit more due to the massive increase of some frontline Wss (fudo...)
- Nukes in form from spells have died now totally off. There is no chance for any nuker to catch up dmg wise now, and if you need magical dmg the elemental magic weaponskill provide now a very good alternative if properly geared (depending on job and WS). Nukers just started recently to catch up, and with a bit more powerfull gear we maybe would have gotten to a point as a respectable alternativ.
- pet jobs are affected too, not like they were allready behind and started to catch up slowly now, but the WS increase has thrown them at the frey back again. pet dmg is neglectable now, all that counts is how fast can the master generate TP to WS. You are hurting yourself now more trying to gear hybrid with your pet in mind then focusing on your own DD output yourself as a master.
- BLU magic needs now a total overhaul AGAIN (it needed one before too)

honestly was excited for the WS update, but it was more harm then good tbh and drained 75% of the jobs down the toilet with the ecxeption of WHM BRD SAM and of course PLD and RNG for those fights you want to avoid haveing melees in. there isnt even a need for nukers anymore, self SC from SAM will get rid of any delve 2.0 aura or deal enough magical dmg to down any mob that is weak to magic since SCs cant be resisted anymore

good job Dev Team, as much as i like my new melee toys, the update disgusts me more atm.

[Olor]

On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.

Thank you for this niblet of info Camate. Can you please please please please emphasize to the Dev Team that massive adjustments are needed especially for BST? We have to spend a lot of money to play and we are the worst DD in the game. SMN easily outparses us. As another poster noted there is no point in even trying to gear to improve pet damage output, because you have to sacrifice too much and the pets are too weak. At least PUP can put on a WHM auto and still be somewhat useful and not have to gear to help their pet damage.

I'm also really disappointed that NONE of the augments of 115 gear included any stats for pet jobs, or for any kind of specialist job whatsoever.

I'd also like to echo those saying magic jobs are getting shafted again by this update. They have artificial limitations in terms of MP, and magic damage scales very poorly.

[Demonjustin]

The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

Sorry to tell you this but you thought wrong. As someone who's owned an Excalibur for more than a year now I can safely say that Requiescat beats it's DMG every single time unless the enemy's DEF stat is too far above your Attack stat, but when the tables turn in Knights of Round's favor Chant du Cygne wipes the floor with it and so too does Death Blossom now.

Knights of Round used to be at least somewhat competitive with Death Blossom which was our 3rd best WS, but neither came close to the numbers CDC and Req were putting out, now it's so far behind by compare to the other 3 that it's flat out worthless. You're talking about a 1-hit WS with 40% STR and 40% MND mods vs 2 3 hit WSs one with 30% STR and 50% MND, the other with the ability to crit as well as an 80% DEX modifier, then you have a 5 hit WS that ignores damage reduction and has a 100% MND modifier. The 1 hit doesn't stand a chance and you even buffed Death Blossom which in all honesty has the same modifiers practically and was stronger to begin with. Not buffing Knights of Round because it's already strong enough is a laughable idea.

I don't mean to sound rude, but everything that takes away from my job annoys the **** outta me, and this is a case of being so very, very wrong about something that something isn't being done that should be on the premise that a WS which has been the weakest WS I could use since CDC was unlocked without requiring Almace, is good enough already.

[Olor]

Knights of the Round "is thought to be powerful"?

Not by anyone who actually plays the game. Seriously - do the devs ever play the game? Do they even check to see if what they "think" is anything close to reality? It's very disappointing to see statements like that. I'm sure you're just conveying what you've been told you can say Camate, but... really?

[Alhanelem]

Greetings,

I’m glad to see the excitement for these adjustments. How has everyone been finding the revamped weapon skills thus far?

I wanted to stop in here and point out some things about the weapon skill adjustments that were made yesterday in relation to NPCs.

• Enemy NPCs
  Certain enemies that use abilities that have the same name as the weapon skills that players use (Maat, Atori-Tutori, etc.) will also receive the effects from these adjustments.
  
  However, when it comes to the Ark Angels and shadow-type monsters in Adoulin areas, even though the abilities may have the same name, data-wise it has been set differently and they will not receive any effects from these adjustments.
  
  We will, however, be making adjustments to the enemies that have been affected by these adjustments in the July version update, and will be restoring them back to their original strength level.
  
  
• Adventuring fellows, alter egos, and other ally NPCs
  The weapon skills that adventuring fellows and Trust alter egos utilize will also receive the effects of these adjustments.
  
  Similarly, campaign ally NPCs are also affected at the moment; however, in the adjustments that are planned for the July version update we will be returning them to their original strength.

On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.




The main aim of the overall adjustments made to weapon skills was to increase the stats of the less powerful weapon skills so they could be on par with the weapon skills that were really powerful before the adjustments took place.

Knights of Round has a high stat modifier before the adjustments took place and compared to other weapon skills is thought to be powerful so adjustments were not made to it.

Oh, so this must be why I've never seen anyone use Knights of Round in recent memory.