[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Olor]

SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.

That's totally different. No other job was required to do alliance content to get to 119. Changing it so that PUP and SMN which are among the weakest jobs in the game were not artificially barred from being at level 119 power by alliance content was sensible.

[Malithar]

You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

I like this post.

It's pretty close to how I view the system.

However, to expand a bit on the D&D bit, it's a bit different of a view. While in D&D, or WoW, or any other MMO where your character selects a class, a path, etc, and retains that path through their life, its far different in FFXI. From the onset, you're given 22 jobs, all of which can have any of those same jobs subbed. Makes for a rather in depth system. Unlike those other games, you're able to change your job to suit your needs, rather than say, make a hybrid character that's capable of healing, DDing, and taking a few hits, but at the cost of higher tier specialized abilities.

Considering that your character's job can be changed to suit your needs at will, that's where the merit cap doesn't make sense, IMO. Trade offs on a per job basis are fine, but when your choices for one job affect another job, it's no longer about tradeoffs to be strong in one area but weaker in another, as those tradeoffs are very likely not even incorporated in the job you're playing.

[Afania]

I like this post.

It's pretty close to how I view the system.

However, to expand a bit on the D&D bit, it's a bit different of a view. While in D&D, or WoW, or any other MMO where your character selects a class, a path, etc, and retains that path through their life, its far different in FFXI. From the onset, you're given 22 jobs, all of which can have any of those same jobs subbed. Makes for a rather in depth system. Unlike those other games, you're able to change your job to suit your needs, rather than say, make a hybrid character that's capable of healing, DDing, and taking a few hits, but at the cost of higher tier specialized abilities.

Considering that your character's job can be changed to suit your needs at will, that's where the merit cap doesn't make sense, IMO. Trade offs on a per job basis are fine, but when your choices for one job affect another job, it's no longer about tradeoffs to be strong in one area but weaker in another, as those tradeoffs are very likely not even incorporated in the job you're playing.

Let's say, if you're playing another MMORPG with a talent tree you can pick between DD Paladin or tank Paladin. If you pick DD paladin your character will suck at PVE and but good at PVP, and vice versa, tank Paladin will be useful in PVE but suck at PVP. You don't get "full functionality" with talent tree.

Isn't that the same thing as FFXI merit point system? If you have STR DEX merit your character will shine on WAR when you're in a content that benefits WAR, but you won't shine as much on BLM in a content that benefits BLM. And vice versa, your BLM will shine in a content that needs magic burn and suck in a content that melee works.

Honestly there really isn't much difference between talent tree and merit point.

[Demonjustin]

Let's say, if you're playing another MMORPG with a talent tree you can pick between DD Paladin or tank Paladin. If you pick DD paladin your character will suck at PVE and but good at PVP, and vice versa, tank Paladin will be useful in PVE but suck at PVP. You don't get "full functionality" with talent tree.

Isn't that the same thing as FFXI merit point system? If you have STR DEX merit your character will shine on WAR when you're in a content that benefits WAR, but you won't shine as much on BLM in a content that benefits BLM. And vice versa, your BLM will shine in a content that needs magic burn and suck in a content that melee works.

Honestly there really isn't much difference between talent tree and merit point.

A talent tree is based on a job, not a character, merit points are character based. If I merit STR & DEX then all jobs get STR & DEX, the fact my WHM will never melee and my RDM is often neglected in that field doesn't change the fact that those are 2 highly vital stats for when I do melee and thus as such I have picked them for my entire character no matter what job I'm on. It's a large distinctive difference than what you're talking about, on the other hand if you want to compare that to job specific merits then that's one thing, but those are terrible as well as almost all of the categories are stuck with only a couple good choices and a bunch of bad ones which really takes away any chance of being unique without gimping yourself.

Lastly you have the job specific categories that are just flat out bad for some jobs and limit what the job itself can even do, for instance a RDM and a SCH/RDM can do almost the exact same in terms of enfeebling when it comes to both accuracy and potency. RDM gets an extremely small step ahead in both due to gear and Job Points but the only thing that lets RDM truly set itself apart from others in either are merits in 2 of 6 spells which still limits the job terribly. These are the ones that are most comparable to a skill tree and they are truly the worst kind in this game because it's the only thing that sets some jobs apart, while other jobs like MNK have only 2 real choices to begin with and if you don't pick those, you're gimping yourself.

[Afania]

A talent tree is based on a job, not a character, merit points are character based.

Talent tree is character based because you can only have 1 job/class in other MMO. Your class= your character. If you build your character that way it'd play that way in every content, which means no full functionality depending on what you do.

Honestly I don't see the difference - -.

[Demonjustin]

Honestly I don't see the difference - -.

Which is your problem. The fact you can't change your class in other games is part of the restrictive nature of other MMOs, part of the stand out features of FFXI is that it doesn't limit you in this way. This is why it's been said consistently that merit points limiting you is the antithesis of the game's nature, other games limit your character to 1 job, that 1 job to 1 path, that path to a certain set of skills and points, resulting in a unique character, but FFXI limits you in none of those ways except merits. This is the difference, and it's a very large one in the end. Put simply, you're comparing apples to oranges.

[PlumbGame]

Which is your problem. The fact you can't change your class in other games is part of the restrictive nature of other MMOs, part of the stand out features of FFXI is that it doesn't limit you in this way. This is why it's been said consistently that merit points limiting you is the antithesis of the game's nature, other games limit your character to 1 job, that 1 job to 1 path, that path to a certain set of skills and points, resulting in a unique character, but FFXI limits you in none of those ways except merits. This is the difference, and it's a very large one in the end. Put simply, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Also, that has been consistently pointed out, it doesn't.

[Alhanelem]

limit your character to 1 job,

Other games don't lock extra characters behind a paywall though, therefore you can play every class in those games too, just not on the same identity. FFXI is unusual in restricting you from more than one character unless you pay more. Customization systems are no more the antithesis for XI than they are for any other game.

The problem as I see it is two schools of thought, basically (but not exactly) a cup half full and cup half empty issue. There are those who view talent trees and merits and other similar systems as little more than non-level progression ( cup half empty approach) where the lack of them is a penalty. Then there are those who view these systems as bonuses or customization options when possessed rather than a punishment for not having (Cup half full). Neither is inherently wrong, and I'd like to stress that I'm really not trying to call anyone wrong in sharing my view on the matter. Personally, to me the best way to address the complaints and retain the customization of the system would be to drastically reduce the difficulty of changing your merits. If you could just respec them for a fee (instead of having to get whole new merits) in your mog house or something, you'd have the customization without the limitations being as much of a hinderance. In most other games with similar systems, it is not very difficult to undo/redo your decisions.

(Perhaps if the tradeoff was built into each effect/ability- that is, every merit has a benefit and a downside, that people would look at them more as customization and not as character progression)

So to be perfectly clear, even though I view the merit system as a customization system more than a progression device, there are a lot of ways the system could execute that goal a lot better than it does now. In posting that I don't want them to uncap merits, that doesn't mean that I feel that the merit system is perfect and without flaw (It very much isn't).

[Ravenmore]

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

News flash they already do this under the current system because they got sick of repeating it over and over for the current favor of the month jobs. Grinding gets really boring no matter if you do it all in one go or you keep having to do it. Also if you haven't been paying attention HP/MP and magic skills are going up on the caps where you can either max them all or come really close. That only leaves Job merits and all but rdm have a right way to merit and anything short is going to get you excluded from content that isn't solo based.

Stop defending them for not pushing out new content and propping up this whole grinding equals content. The simple answer to keeping people from getting bored is to push out meaningful content faster. What prop the game up in the past won't cut it in today's market plan and simple. Long gone are the days of burning sky for 1% drops and trying to beat claim bots on 72 hour kings get over it or rushing that new ls member though CoP because they promised to come whm or rdm to everything. It was bad game design then and still is.

Every mob(that wasn't AV SEs little pet) in old endgame was easy once someone posted the strat and it went to another boring farm and the only reason half your ls even bother showing up was to stay on top for the drop they wanted not because they enjoyed the event or even cared for most of the other LS members. The fact the big LSes died the sec they were no longer needed show how bad it was.

Sadly SE thought it was cheaper to build another MMO from the ground up then rebuilding XI(jokes on them) and adding systems that would have made it challenging with out relying on cheap crap. Like just over powering the mobs and the players answering with only taking the one job with the highest HP and the mage that could cure for the most. If they added stuff like 14 boss fights or even some of the fights in XI where you had to pay attention to were you are standing during such and such TP move or the environment changed like the Diabolos fight.

[Camiie]

Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

You're shooting your own argument in the foot by downplaying the effectiveness of the merit weapon skills. You're painting them as worthless yet latching onto them as though they have considerable value. Which is it? If they're completely unnecessary, then there's no reason to limit them as having them all fully merited does not make one overpowered, nor does having a useless ability make one meaningfully unique.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

That's a highly disrespectful and demeaning comment. You're just outright insulting me and anyone who disagrees with you at this point.