[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Alhanelem]

I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.

Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

They only give you choices for customization via limiting you.

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true. You're still free to use any job and still beat content. You're free to change your merits at any time with (relatively) low difficulty.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful.

It's more likely those people will either 1) quit the game or 2) only do solo stuff. The elitist community is shooting themselves in the foot and reducing overall server populations further by trying to get people who want to play the game their way to "relent," if you ask me. So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

[Malithar]

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true.

Your definition of limited seems to be vastly different than what nearly anyone else would consider limited.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

No. Good game design would be each and every Job Merit being roughly equal in utility. That's obviously not the case, hence most jobs have a fairly straight forward "this is what you merit." Some have some uniqueness and options to them, and the one's that do, I'd back as being good design.

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

Not specifically you, but typically the snow flake players I've met are just, for lack of a better phrase, straight up bad. They're the Whms that can't keep a haste rotation, that are oblivious to the uses of Boost-spells and Dia, the DDs who don't WS swap, the melee mages that get one shot, etc. Pick your poison. But once your taint ruins runs, that's that, ya know? Gone or not, I don't think many really care.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

[Xantavia]

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

[Malithar]

You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

I like this post.

It's pretty close to how I view the system.

However, to expand a bit on the D&D bit, it's a bit different of a view. While in D&D, or WoW, or any other MMO where your character selects a class, a path, etc, and retains that path through their life, its far different in FFXI. From the onset, you're given 22 jobs, all of which can have any of those same jobs subbed. Makes for a rather in depth system. Unlike those other games, you're able to change your job to suit your needs, rather than say, make a hybrid character that's capable of healing, DDing, and taking a few hits, but at the cost of higher tier specialized abilities.

Considering that your character's job can be changed to suit your needs at will, that's where the merit cap doesn't make sense, IMO. Trade offs on a per job basis are fine, but when your choices for one job affect another job, it's no longer about tradeoffs to be strong in one area but weaker in another, as those tradeoffs are very likely not even incorporated in the job you're playing.

[Afania]

I like this post.

It's pretty close to how I view the system.

However, to expand a bit on the D&D bit, it's a bit different of a view. While in D&D, or WoW, or any other MMO where your character selects a class, a path, etc, and retains that path through their life, its far different in FFXI. From the onset, you're given 22 jobs, all of which can have any of those same jobs subbed. Makes for a rather in depth system. Unlike those other games, you're able to change your job to suit your needs, rather than say, make a hybrid character that's capable of healing, DDing, and taking a few hits, but at the cost of higher tier specialized abilities.

Considering that your character's job can be changed to suit your needs at will, that's where the merit cap doesn't make sense, IMO. Trade offs on a per job basis are fine, but when your choices for one job affect another job, it's no longer about tradeoffs to be strong in one area but weaker in another, as those tradeoffs are very likely not even incorporated in the job you're playing.

Let's say, if you're playing another MMORPG with a talent tree you can pick between DD Paladin or tank Paladin. If you pick DD paladin your character will suck at PVE and but good at PVP, and vice versa, tank Paladin will be useful in PVE but suck at PVP. You don't get "full functionality" with talent tree.

Isn't that the same thing as FFXI merit point system? If you have STR DEX merit your character will shine on WAR when you're in a content that benefits WAR, but you won't shine as much on BLM in a content that benefits BLM. And vice versa, your BLM will shine in a content that needs magic burn and suck in a content that melee works.

Honestly there really isn't much difference between talent tree and merit point.

[Demonjustin]

Let's say, if you're playing another MMORPG with a talent tree you can pick between DD Paladin or tank Paladin. If you pick DD paladin your character will suck at PVE and but good at PVP, and vice versa, tank Paladin will be useful in PVE but suck at PVP. You don't get "full functionality" with talent tree.

Isn't that the same thing as FFXI merit point system? If you have STR DEX merit your character will shine on WAR when you're in a content that benefits WAR, but you won't shine as much on BLM in a content that benefits BLM. And vice versa, your BLM will shine in a content that needs magic burn and suck in a content that melee works.

Honestly there really isn't much difference between talent tree and merit point.

A talent tree is based on a job, not a character, merit points are character based. If I merit STR & DEX then all jobs get STR & DEX, the fact my WHM will never melee and my RDM is often neglected in that field doesn't change the fact that those are 2 highly vital stats for when I do melee and thus as such I have picked them for my entire character no matter what job I'm on. It's a large distinctive difference than what you're talking about, on the other hand if you want to compare that to job specific merits then that's one thing, but those are terrible as well as almost all of the categories are stuck with only a couple good choices and a bunch of bad ones which really takes away any chance of being unique without gimping yourself.

Lastly you have the job specific categories that are just flat out bad for some jobs and limit what the job itself can even do, for instance a RDM and a SCH/RDM can do almost the exact same in terms of enfeebling when it comes to both accuracy and potency. RDM gets an extremely small step ahead in both due to gear and Job Points but the only thing that lets RDM truly set itself apart from others in either are merits in 2 of 6 spells which still limits the job terribly. These are the ones that are most comparable to a skill tree and they are truly the worst kind in this game because it's the only thing that sets some jobs apart, while other jobs like MNK have only 2 real choices to begin with and if you don't pick those, you're gimping yourself.

[Afania]

A talent tree is based on a job, not a character, merit points are character based.

Talent tree is character based because you can only have 1 job/class in other MMO. Your class= your character. If you build your character that way it'd play that way in every content, which means no full functionality depending on what you do.

Honestly I don't see the difference - -.

[Afania]

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

There's also the overzealous feel of "I'm being hindered" with merit point system, but in reality you are not.

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

I also don't understand the logic behind "If you like merit point system and decision making, you don't have logic. If you don't like merit point system you have logic." If there's a flaw in merit point system, such as certain choices are more popular than another, the right fix is to balance it, not remove it.

[detlef]

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.

[Olor]

SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.

That's totally different. No other job was required to do alliance content to get to 119. Changing it so that PUP and SMN which are among the weakest jobs in the game were not artificially barred from being at level 119 power by alliance content was sensible.