[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Ravenmore]

LOL really now. Ok so I show up as a drg to a delve boss run and say I don't have angon because I want to be as special snow flake how fast do you think the group would kick me. If you want to do group content you have to submit to what the group needs and wants. While yes it is a player issue it is also SE's issue to fix it, and changing the game is a whole lot easier then trying to change people.There is no harm AT ALL in uncapping the system. As so many people have pointed out there has always only been one right way to spend job merits if you wanted to do content on that job.

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful. Also they have been upping the caps on the ones that used to really limit what jobs you can max out before the merited weapon skills were added. Combat, HP/MP, magic skills, attributes even the other cat have gotten increases that now limit you very little.

[Demonjustin]

It was said that being able to merit everything would push them toward logging in, so it makes total sense that the opposite is true if they do not uncap merits.

No. You see this is where we're misunderstanding one another I think.

Imagine on this chart the left is how little someone wants to log in due to something, while the right is how much people want to log in because of something.


Now, what we have right now is this...


This is neutral, people don't want to log in more, nor do they want to log in less necessarily, meaning this update has no impact by not being done. This is what I was saying is the case.

The way you originally worded your statement is "If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already." which would look more like...


Which is showing fewer people wanting to log in till this kind of update would be done. Regardless, it's not what is being said. What is being said is that right now we're at that neutral point up above but doing this...

Merits don't limit you, they give you choices for customization.

They only give you choices for customization via limiting you. So that's basically saying they don't limit you, they just limit you. It's a "one man's trash is another man's treasure" situation, call it what you like it's a limiting system either way.

[Camiie]

That only makes you "unique" until you have every merit WS. It makes people feel obligated to get them all just because they can, even though they probably don't need them all. Once the active playerbase has done this, there is no difference from one player to another and the merit system has failed at its originally intended function of offering customization options.

Remove merit caps and the only uniqueness from one player to the next will be whether they are haves or have nots, and their character appearance (which has so few options that everyone has at least a few lookalikes).

I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.

[FrankReynolds]

You overstate the impact of the system immensely.

Well that's a catch 22. If it doesn't make a significant difference, then it doesn't make you significantly unique. So find some other way to be unique. This one is unimportant.

[Alhanelem]

I'll take freedom and full functionality over uniqueness any day.

Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

They only give you choices for customization via limiting you.

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true. You're still free to use any job and still beat content. You're free to change your merits at any time with (relatively) low difficulty.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful.

It's more likely those people will either 1) quit the game or 2) only do solo stuff. The elitist community is shooting themselves in the foot and reducing overall server populations further by trying to get people who want to play the game their way to "relent," if you ask me. So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

[Malithar]

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true.

Your definition of limited seems to be vastly different than what nearly anyone else would consider limited.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

No. Good game design would be each and every Job Merit being roughly equal in utility. That's obviously not the case, hence most jobs have a fairly straight forward "this is what you merit." Some have some uniqueness and options to them, and the one's that do, I'd back as being good design.

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

Not specifically you, but typically the snow flake players I've met are just, for lack of a better phrase, straight up bad. They're the Whms that can't keep a haste rotation, that are oblivious to the uses of Boost-spells and Dia, the DDs who don't WS swap, the melee mages that get one shot, etc. Pick your poison. But once your taint ruins runs, that's that, ya know? Gone or not, I don't think many really care.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

[Xantavia]

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

[predatory]

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

[Afania]

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

There's also the overzealous feel of "I'm being hindered" with merit point system, but in reality you are not.

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

I also don't understand the logic behind "If you like merit point system and decision making, you don't have logic. If you don't like merit point system you have logic." If there's a flaw in merit point system, such as certain choices are more popular than another, the right fix is to balance it, not remove it.

[detlef]

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

SE caved in to complaints about Divinator and Seraphicaller being exclusively available from alliance content. Why would they do that, none of that gear is required to play the job and beat the content.