[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Demonjustin]

What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.

That doesn't change much most of the time. I prefer RDM in any situation but just because my RDM is fully merited and my character is built around it doesn't change the fact people want WHM instead sometimes and unless I'm willing to go WHM I just won't be taken at all. The same can be said for anyone who has a prefered job, sure, you might prefer SAM, but if we don't need a SAM and you're not up to par on THF compared to what I'm wanting then I just won't take you at all and the very fact you merited SAM rather than THF becomes nothing more than a hinderance.

[Alhanelem]

1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in

Dubious. It doesn't give me more reasons to log in. Even if I can max out more WS, that's not going to impact my current login rate. If it doesn't give me more reasons, it stands to reason that at least some other people aren't given more reasons. If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already.

2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)

Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

Opinion, not a fact. With 22 job options, a system that provides specialization and thereby lets you stand out on a favorite makes sense to me.

None of your points are "logical outgrowths." Two are pretty much wrong and one is a subjective opinion. Points 1 and 2 do indeed make assumptions about the average player's experience.

You're getting doused with likes in spite of this fact, so I pretty much can't win. I said coming in here I knew my opinion wasn't popular. But just because people like your post, doesn't mean you're right. Fortunately for us, post like contests don't dictate SE policy (most of the time).

(also, I'd like to see some math expert person come in here and tell us if the recently posted WS adjustements decrease the dominance of any of the popular merit WS).

[PlumbGame]

Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.

The logic behind this is absolutely flawed. You are trying come up with momentary answer to bigger issues (basically, you allow people to put points into all merits till...... there is no more merits to put points into putting us back into the same boat we are in now, lets ignore the fact you have no credible source at all that it would make people log in more rather than exping vs doing their normal routine). You also argue your ideas under the opinion that SE doesn't want people to somewhat specialize what they do, for example, lets use a relic wep for the sake of the argument (this is also assuming you get a relic for the job you like to play). For the most part, they are better than the i119 weps you can get (excluding m/e), but the 119 weps are still there to allow you to gear other jobs that can successfully do current content without needing a relic (the cookie cutter builds people do requiring relics is irrelevant since the content can be done without). Basically what I'm getting at is the current way merits are in the game, besides job specific merits (which you can put points into them for every job), none of them make or break you, and to assume otherwise would probably suggest you have a much bigger issue than you couldn't put x amount of points into x weapon skill or x amount of points into x magic skill.

I would also like to point out that 212 likes (time of viewing your post) is no where near some kind of majority view of the player base of this game. Do I think most people that would read to allow us to obtain more merits would agree? Hell yeah, I even absolutely agree with the idea. But don't argue flawed logic to support your point and that you are right because all the other ignorant people who agree with you like your post.

[Malithar]

The logic behind this is absolutely flawed. You are trying come up with momentary answer to bigger issues (basically, you allow people to put points into all merits till...... there is no more merits to put points into putting us back into the same boat we are in now, lets ignore the fact you have no credible source at all that it would make people log in more rather than exping vs doing their normal routine(...) I even absolutely agree with the idea. But don't argue flawed logic to support your point and that you are right because all the other ignorant people who agree with you like your post.

I suppose the idea of having more productive things to do to build your character in an MMO is a radical new idea that needs to be studied before such an assumption can be made. "Flawed logic" is a hell of a leap, IMO.

Saturday night free time w/ change: Hmm, got 3 hours to burn, what to do, what to do...Oh, I could merit some other stats now that SE uncapped them!

Saturday night free time w/o change: Hmm, got 3 hours to burn, what to do, what to do... er, I'm capped out on Delve gear, I've got more gil than I know what to do with from farming it for months, capped on +1 Skirmish, LS doesn't have any plans...Oh, Imma go see that new X-Men movie!

Is having something to do in an MMO really that much of a logic leap to call it a reason to log in?

Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

It may not outright prevent it, but tell me, do you find yourself itching to do lackluster events with rewards that you have no interest in or no longer need, simply for the "fun" of it? Capped KIs, merits, and merit points are a very real thing, and when you hit that point, there is no incentive to go and exp, as it goes straight to the void, rather than into a useful point tally. I'd say calling it dubious is pretty far off the mark, considering that's the main driving force behind VW/exping in general.

[PlumbGame]

I suppose the idea of having more productive things to do to build your character in an MMO is a radical new idea that needs to be studied before such an assumption can be made. "Flawed logic" is a hell of a leap, IMO.

Yea, you are right, oh wait, why are we complaining in the first place. I can farm or do the same RoE over and and over that we have, could keep going, but I'm sure you get the idea.

[Malithar]

I can farm or do the same RoE over and and over that we have, could keep going, but I'm sure you get the idea.

You're 100% right, until, as you pointed out in your previous post, there's no longer a reason to do it. Hence why this is something more to do.

[PlumbGame]

You're 100% right, until, as you pointed out in your previous post, there's no longer a reason to do it. Hence why this is something more to do.

Hence the speculation that SE want's you to possible excel at some jobs, I wish I pointed that out in my post, oh wait.

Also, there is job points, I'm willing to bet no one has all job points for every job, to suggest that there is "nothing for the player base to do, so we should be able to have more merits" is absurd. More options are great, hence my agreement (if you read my entire post which you obviously didn't), but like I said, the flawed logic behind his points is flawed.

[Camiie]

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

This isn't even a logical discussion. The whole thing on both sides is based on feelings and preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that you seem to think that an RPG can only be an RPG if it's based on a plus/minus system. That somehow if SE allows a player to unlock all weapon skills on a single character that FFXI is no longer an RPG.

FFXI doesn't even have a plus/minus system in the first place as you've defined it. It has limits, but choosing to "plus" one thing doesn't cause another thing to "minus." My INT doesn't go down when I merit STR. My WAR doesn't delevel when I level my BLM. My ice potency doesn't decrease when I merit earth. So, your whole plus/minus argument is moot anyway. FFXI is already not an RPG by your rather strict definition.

This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

It's a fantasy game. Asking for it to mimic real life in such a way is absurd. In a game where someone can simply read a scroll and instantly learn how to blow things up with their mind or talk to a flying plushie and adopt a completely new skill set, I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine that exceptional people (like our characters) can learn anything they damn well please to learn by putting forth the effort (or reading a scroll, or watching a monster do it, or bashing things with a weapon enough times...).

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

Again you have this very narrow view about what an RPG is. An RPG can still be an RPG with total freedom. As long as you're playing a role in a game setting that's all that's required. The actual game mechanics and methods of stat distribution are irrelevant.

[Demonjustin]

Dubious. It doesn't give me more reasons to log in. Even if I can max out more WS, that's not going to impact my current login rate. If it doesn't give me more reasons, it stands to reason that at least some other people aren't given more reasons. If not being able to max all weapon skills is pushing you towards not logging in, there is probably a lot more serious issues that have pushed you in that direction already.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. No one said that being unable to merit things is pushing them toward not logging in. There's a large difference between "this gives us more reasons to log in" and "without this, I don't want to log in as much". More things to merit means more things to do, which means more reasons to log in as a result. There's not a player in this game who wouldn't gain use from uncapping merit points as a whole, there aren't many who wouldn't benefit from uncapping weaponskill merits.

Dubious. The merit system doesn't really prevent anyone from doing this.

It also is at a dead end for most players right now and as a result gives less reason to do that content. I never do VW unless I need merits for MPNMs, that's not often. If I had more merits to get for WSs or to get my RDM more spells I'd do it in a heartbeat, instead I'm left with little benefit/incentive.

Opinion, not a fact.

Not really. I can't think of anything in this game really that limits you to one thing or another like merits do. We have 22 jobs, but we pick between them at will and can not only level them all to capped level but gear them to the maximum extreme. We have a few choices like what country we live in but that choice is minor especially now days, we have choices in what mission rewards we want but those are almost always worthless except for one option anyways. Job Points aren't limited at all, they are removing the cap on HP/MP basically, I mean to me it seems like it makes sense to say that the majority of merit points as a system are the only real 'specialized' system in this game. If they are, that by definition would mean they fall outside of the rest of FFXI's paradigm. At least that's how I see things.

[Mefuki]

The argument that uncapping merits will hurt uniqueness doesn't make sense to me, not only because, as Byrth has said, there's usually only one "right" way to merit but also because there's only so much time in a day. Even if you were to uncap merits people would still be distinct. I'm a BLU main, maybe Justin is a RDM main, Byrth is maybe a DNC main etc and we each have different secondary jobs and we only have so much time to devote to any job/jobs and getting gear for those jobs. Merits make no difference as far as uniqueness goes.

Edit: Also, there's a great amount of irony in the fact that SE is constantly increasing the caps on HP/MP, Attributes, Combat skills and Magic skills merits, which are the few merit categories that actually DO give decent to high functional diversity.