[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Afania]

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

Alhanelem's argument isn't "unsupported arguement", it's just based on different design fundamental as yours. The point of defending for merit point system is to mimic how real life works, which is "a master scientist can't be a master baseball player". Without merit point system, current FFXI game system fail to simulate such facet of real life because it's much easier to obtain very good gear and skill to be good at multiple jobs, as long as you have time to invest.

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

Torclever is terrible, and GSD has nothing else available, and Scythe is pretty much a utility weapon at this point. As your job is a DD, how do you expect to perform your job as a DD to the fullest of your ability without having a solid DD WS? Is that just it, you don't expect to perform to the fullest of your ability, and you settle for mediocrity? Not trying to be insulting, but that's a really terrible example to give for the benefit of your argument.

Since "role playing element" should come first, then the right way to solve this issue is to buff existing/2nd best WS so they can catch up, and keep the role playing element in this game. Now you're saying merit point system/role playing element shouldn't exist because SE didn't do a good job balancing it, but it should be other way around.

Furthermore, I'd argue it actually is quite a crippling system. Lets take a hypothetical mage only character that decides to level a DD job, lets say Rng. Being mage only, they've stuck their merits into Mnd, Int, Club, Staff, defensive skills, and idk, sword or something for a Rdm, as well as 5/5ing the corresponding WSs. Cool beans. Now lets bring that Rng to a VD fight. They're missing 12 Str/Agi merits, 8 weapon merits, and a stronger WS (barring relic, ignore enmity for this example.) That may not sound like much, but that's giving them a lower fStr, lower accuracy, less WS damage, and less RAtt. Without removing merits from their mage jobs, they're stuck without these benefits. I'm not going to say this Rng is now crippled and incapable of doing said content. But should they really be hindered for their choices in merits? Is that really something you believe is fair?

This is actually not a very convincing example for ppl defending for merit point system For ppl like me and Alhanelem who value role playing element more than anything else, the above example is exactly what we wanted: a player who choose to be a pro mage with high MND/INT/club will be bad at archery.

This isn't a matter of "fair", it's not like this game is PVP game and if you deal less dmg than another RNG you get low ranking. This is life, a mage that's smart and spend entire life studying and get smarter (higher INT)shouldn't be strong enough to deal good dmg with a bow(lower STR). If you want the game to be perfectly "fair", then there's no point to play a RPG at all. Games like FTG or RTS are perfectly "fair" that character performance is separate by skill, not stat. Games like RPG should let players live another life in a game though.

On the other hand, there's almost 0 reason to be perfectly "fair" in FFXI. A RNG without 12 STR/AGI merit and do less dmg, won't be in that much of a disadvantage. He can still complete the content. There's no PVP/recommendation/ranking system in FFXI either. He may have harder time to complete the content that needs RNG but that's only because current content design doesn't benefit mage main(nukers such as BLM SCH isn't main DD) so he can't get advantage as a mage main, not because there's a flaw in merit point system.

Anyways, it seems that ppl who doesn't want merit point system can't grasp the idea of role playing element in a MMORPG, so there's no point to argue about this subject anymore IMO. You can argue that role playing doesn't work in MMO because of optimization mentality, this is actually a whole other subject.....even games with 1 single class has balance issue with talent tree, all the time. There's always "most efficient/popular choice" in any RPG, even if the choice is there. However, last time when I play a game that removed choice making completely(FFXIV, I'm looking at you) I have 0 fun in it even if it's completely "fair" when it comes to class performance. I'd rather play a game with merit point system/talent tree and not perfectly balanced, than another game that removes such aspect completely. You can't ask the dev to erase the role playing element from a MMORPG just because merit point is hard to balance.

[Byrth]

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting. Applying caps late in the game just doesn't make any logical sense and runs contrary to FFXI's Level 1 design principles.

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

If one day census shows that every_single_player do exactly same merit, then maybe "merit point is useless design" is a legit argument....once everyone makes the same choice there's no reason to give the player option to choose anymore. Until then players still make different choices, which is fact.

This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

Here is a response to a similar post:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/118...=1#post6124375



By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience.

[Afania]

Au contraire. My actual argument is that attempting to impose "reality" on our job system in the final throes (aka the merit point system) is a waste of time. The job system is inherently un-limiting.

I don't agree, and this is just your personal opinion, that you wanted to force your own ideal job system on to FFXI's. I think FFXI with merit point system and +/- on the stats works perfectly fine.

If you want to talk about design philosophy and removing "unnecessary" portion of the game, I can argue that dev should remove lv1~lv99 first and let everyone jump straight to endgame.

It works, and it'd work better than current FFXI. But the role playing element would be gone and make the game less interesting. Merit point system is the same.

Example: The job system and current exclusionary events indicate that we're supposed to be versatile characters so that we can take part in the content that is released. The limiting merit system discourages us from becoming more versatile and encourages us to specialize. These are obviously running at cross purposes.

All the content are still doable without having capped merit though, it didn't "discourage" the player to play certain job just because your stat is 12 lower than another player. The gap between merit point WS and the 2nd best option is a bigger issue, and that needs to be fixed. But not through removing merit point system.

This depends strongly on what you think of as "every single player". Something like 70% of the level 12 stats in 2012 were STR. Is it safe to say that "every single player" had 12 STR merits? No, but c'moooon. The data doesn't provide any information on how many people are actually at the merit cap, which makes it difficult to answer any relevant questions with it, but it looks like people overwhelmingly merit the same thing in essentially every single category that matters.

Huh, if I'm lving a mage only character or a mage mule, I probably won't merit STR, ever.

[Camiie]

You think Alhanelem's argument isn't logical because you don't give a damn about "real life/role playing aspect" in FFXI, while me and Alhanelem view "real life /role playing aspect" more important than anything else. It doesn't make his argument "unsupported".

This isn't even a logical discussion. The whole thing on both sides is based on feelings and preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that you seem to think that an RPG can only be an RPG if it's based on a plus/minus system. That somehow if SE allows a player to unlock all weapon skills on a single character that FFXI is no longer an RPG.

FFXI doesn't even have a plus/minus system in the first place as you've defined it. It has limits, but choosing to "plus" one thing doesn't cause another thing to "minus." My INT doesn't go down when I merit STR. My WAR doesn't delevel when I level my BLM. My ice potency doesn't decrease when I merit earth. So, your whole plus/minus argument is moot anyway. FFXI is already not an RPG by your rather strict definition.

This only applies if every player has same amount of play time. Basically, a player that plays 24/7 can master way more jobs in FFXI than another player that plays less. Because of that, current system can't simulate rl properly. Irl everyone only has 24hr a day, no matter who you are you can't have more time than another person. Therefore you can't master more jobs/skills than another person that's equally smart because you don't have more time than him, that you must make a choice between wanting to be a scientist or an artist. In FFXI, An arbitrary limit is the only way to simulate such real life aspect.

It's a fantasy game. Asking for it to mimic real life in such a way is absurd. In a game where someone can simply read a scroll and instantly learn how to blow things up with their mind or talk to a flying plushie and adopt a completely new skill set, I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine that exceptional people (like our characters) can learn anything they damn well please to learn by putting forth the effort (or reading a scroll, or watching a monster do it, or bashing things with a weapon enough times...).

Unless you want worse design such as weekly currency cap/gear cap like FFXIV, merit point system is the best we can get. If you have better idea to make a game with stronger role playing experience, make a suggestion. But "I'm unique because I say different things in /p" or "I'm unique because I invest my time on different jobs from others" doesn't count.

Unlock the weapon skill categories and leave uniqueness in the hands of the players. That's my idea.

And no, "I can be what I want thus I can master 10 jobs instead of 1 because that's what I want" also doesn't count. Role playing isn't about total freedom, nor a race about who has more playtime.

Again you have this very narrow view about what an RPG is. An RPG can still be an RPG with total freedom. As long as you're playing a role in a game setting that's all that's required. The actual game mechanics and methods of stat distribution are irrelevant.

[predatory]

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

[Ravenmore]

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

News flash they already do this under the current system because they got sick of repeating it over and over for the current favor of the month jobs. Grinding gets really boring no matter if you do it all in one go or you keep having to do it. Also if you haven't been paying attention HP/MP and magic skills are going up on the caps where you can either max them all or come really close. That only leaves Job merits and all but rdm have a right way to merit and anything short is going to get you excluded from content that isn't solo based.

Stop defending them for not pushing out new content and propping up this whole grinding equals content. The simple answer to keeping people from getting bored is to push out meaningful content faster. What prop the game up in the past won't cut it in today's market plan and simple. Long gone are the days of burning sky for 1% drops and trying to beat claim bots on 72 hour kings get over it or rushing that new ls member though CoP because they promised to come whm or rdm to everything. It was bad game design then and still is.

Every mob(that wasn't AV SEs little pet) in old endgame was easy once someone posted the strat and it went to another boring farm and the only reason half your ls even bother showing up was to stay on top for the drop they wanted not because they enjoyed the event or even cared for most of the other LS members. The fact the big LSes died the sec they were no longer needed show how bad it was.

Sadly SE thought it was cheaper to build another MMO from the ground up then rebuilding XI(jokes on them) and adding systems that would have made it challenging with out relying on cheap crap. Like just over powering the mobs and the players answering with only taking the one job with the highest HP and the mage that could cure for the most. If they added stuff like 14 boss fights or even some of the fights in XI where you had to pay attention to were you are standing during such and such TP move or the environment changed like the Diabolos fight.

[predatory]

who was defending them, I was just saying how it is, I did mention lack of endgame content a couple of times, how does that seem like defending them? I was talking more about the business model, I rarely defend SE these days, they've really fucked the game up, but I do truly believe if they opened up the merit points completely half the player base would be gone in a month, maybe two