[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Alhanelem]

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?

Well, it does depend on the WS and what its used against. The real question is: is the weapon skill ever the best choice without the upgrades? I'd say most of the time, it's still good enough to be king (at least until the WS revamps depending on what they do).

I personally do agree with your message, that the WS are plenty functional without the upgrades and that the upgrades aren't likely to determine the outcome of a fight. But some people, we'll call them "perfectionists," are not satisfied until they've milked every single potential point of damage possible, whether it's necesary or not. There's nothing wrong with that, really, just pointing out that the revisions they made likely satisfied some people but not others.

[Camiie]

Still waiting for the game to "shatter the mold."

I hear there's this one MMO from a bit over a decade ago that let's you level all classes on a single character. It was a pretty groundbreaking concept at the time.

There are game design reasons when you don't just let everyone get all of everything. Making decisions about your character (or party in a single player game) is supposed to be one of the elements of challenge, fun, and creativity in an RPG. Over the years though, decisions have been gradually getting stripped from just about every MMO in existence. You see a lot more people creating nonsensical names for their avatars because they can just pay to change them later. You see people making hasty decisions about their appearance because they can pay to change it later. People feel compelled to get every item for every job because the game lets them even though they don't have to. Letting people have everything creates as many problems as it solves. In most single player RPGs you have to make a decision at every turn, a decision that affects the outcome of a battle, a decision that affects the story, and a decision that irrevocably changes your characters. But put those things in an online RPG and everyone will beg for it to be removed. Why is this? can people just not handle decision making?

bla bla bla bla bla. You don't need to be the best at all 22 jobs, but that also doesn't mean you can't actually use all 22 of them. Why not enjoy choosing a path for your character instead of resenting the fact that a decision needs to be made?

Hell, I chose to be a Galka. Then I chose to be a summoner. Back when the game was new, you can predict the crap I got for doing that. Now, nobody cares. I can do my job just as well as any other SMN, and I can assure you my merits are probably not the same as yours. I chose to "waste" my merits on certain WS. Suprise! I can still play as my SCH or DNC or DRK if I really want to.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

[detlef]

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?

Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions. I've decided on my own what classes are worth leveling and maxing out and they are different from the ones you've chosen. If other people have the time and resources to max out everything then that's no skin off my nose. It doesn't cheapen any of my own accomplishments. Why would it?

I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

[Malithar]

Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

Been up for too long when I didn't see the sarcasm til the bolded. D:

[Nappy]

Totally agree. That damage is completely insignificant over the course of a long fight with dozens upon dozens of weapon skills.

I disagree. Other players should be restricted from improving their characters beyond what I'm willing to do. Why should they be able to merit more weapon skills just because they have the time and inclination to do so? I'm glad barriers are in place to prevent this. As it is, the few unpopular jobs I've leveled have never been turned away from current content (like voidwatch) based on my choice of merits. Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

This is how MMOs were meant to be. Fun is all about making compromises and concessions.

First off i don't see anyone saying you cant create another char and merit weapon skills on them. You do have the time don't you?

"Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique" because maxing them all is not following the pack eh?

TBH though i was uptight about the merit ws thing when it first came out. Now days the diff is so unnoticeable that i really don't care.

[Alhanelem]

I don't need an arbitrary limit to force me to make decisions

It's not really arbitrary, it makes plenty of sense. Nuclear scientests typically aren't the best football players, while garbage collectors typically aren't the best CEOs. You can't be the best at everything in real life, therefore it is not such a wild stretch, even in a fantasy game. FFXI is already very generous as far as how good it lets you be at everything. None of the weaponskill merits render a job unplayable in lacking one the job can use. The main stat merits don't add enough to dramatically change anything. The HP/MP merits don't dramatically change anything. (Most) job specific merits are not really essential to the job. Merits are additions, bonuses. Having to choose them does not mean you won't be able to play this job or that job. Especially since you can't see other people's merits, you're not going to get kicked out of a party if you, for instance, spent most of your attribute points on STR then go play black mage. Is it minmax optimal? No. Can you still clear content with the job? Yes.

Seeing everybody having to merit the exact same weapon skills makes me feel safer, more secure, and somehow more unique.

If that's what actually happened, your post would have some merit. But as it stands, not everybody merits the same things for their job, not everyone merits the same weapon skills, not everyone allocates their HP/MP the same, etc. So yes, you are more unique as a result of the current design of the merit system than you would be if it was changed the way everyone here is begging for it to be.

[detlef]

It's not really arbitrary, it makes plenty of sense. Nuclear scientests typically aren't the best football players, while garbage collectors typically aren't the best CEOs. You can't be the best at everything in real life, therefore it is not such a wild stretch, even in a fantasy game.

You know why scientists and football players do not have many shared abilities? It's a combination of natural, dog-given talent and amount of time you can devote to become more skilled and knowledgeable in your craft. That doesn't really apply to FFXI because it only requires a baseline amount of actual player skill and you are essentially free to play the game as much as you want. In terms of time spent, you can become an expert PLD in a tiny fraction of the amount of time it would take to become an expert scientist. Keep in mind that nothing limits you from being a master PLD AND a master fisherman (and a master leathercrafter on top of that).

Slightly more than 1 game day is elapsing every real-life hour. If you subscribe to the 10,000 hours of practice rule, you should be able to completely master something in 16 days of game play.

Maybe we shouldn't be using real life analogies.

FFXI is already very generous as far as how good it lets you be at everything. None of the weaponskill merits render a job unplayable in lacking one the job can use. The main stat merits don't add enough to dramatically change anything. The HP/MP merits don't dramatically change anything. (Most) job specific merits are not really essential to the job. Merits are additions, bonuses. Having to choose them does not mean you won't be able to play this job or that job. Especially since you can't see other people's merits, you're not going to get kicked out of a party if you, for instance, spent most of your attribute points on STR then go play black mage. Is it minmax optimal? No. Can you still clear content with the job? Yes.

Saying you don't need X in order to clear content is a pretty lazy argument that can be applied to anything. I suppose we can't complain about job points either. They're just a bonus after all.

If that's what actually happened, your post would have some merit. But as it stands, not everybody merits the same things for their job, not everyone merits the same weapon skills, not everyone allocates their HP/MP the same, etc. So yes, you are more unique as a result of the current design of the merit system than you would be if it was changed the way everyone here is begging for it to be.

Most people do merit the same things. If you play MNK you need Shijin. If you play DRK you need Resolution. If you play BRD you need to need to max out Nitro. If you play RNG you're going to merit Snapshot and Recycle.

Players have a choice only when:
1. All of the options suck and it doesn't matter what you pick (NIN merits)
2. All (or most) of the options are useful (COR merits)
3. Your choice is actually about what job you are willing to gimp

In most cases, you don't have a choice.

Aside from that, does anybody really care about uniqueness? In appearance and gear sure, but does anybody care about being one of the only players to have Aggressive Aim merits?

[FrankReynolds]

Yay, let's keep limits on merits so that way it's even harder to find people to do things with. Gear checks on content aren't enough. We need more ways to make forming groups suck arse in this game. Shouting for just the right job with just the right merits is the best part of the game. Sure I can't find the right damage dealer or healer to do the thing I want to do right now, but at least that one guy who's not logged in right now got to be original. I'm having fun just knowing that that guy feels special.

[Alhanelem]

You know why scientists and football players do not have many shared abilities? It's a combination of natural, dog-given talent and amount of time you can devote to become more skilled and knowledgeable in your craft.

Which was my point. Your statement about the actual amount of skill required to play the game is irrelevant to the topic. Also, it isn't just developing skill and knowledge in a craft- There is also the physical capability factor.

Saying you don't need X in order to clear content is a pretty lazy argument that can be applied to anything. I suppose we can't complain about job points either. They're just a bonus after all.

It's not "lazy." It's a reasonable argument. Declaring an argument "lazy" doesn't invalidate it. Your personal standard may be that everyone has to be as perfect as possible, but not everyone has that standard, and those people will still be able to play content in the game just fine, which disproves the argument that XYZ merits are a necessity for ABC job. Man, what the hell did we do before the merit WS were introduced! The game was impossible before that!

And job points are a different system from merit points:

-Merit points are easy to obtain but have category limits that require decisions to be made about where you want to go with them. You decide you don't like what you chose, it's not unfeasible to unmerit something and remerit something else. Merits are so easy now that it's gotten to a point where they started using them as a currency....
-Job points are much harder to obtain and are effectively limited by the comparative difficulty of obtaining them. Also, they were designed from the beginning to cater to the job system and fact that many people are leveling every job. You can get job points for every job, but it will take you an eternity or three.

Players have a choice only when:
1. All of the options suck and it doesn't matter what you pick (NIN merits)
2. All (or most) of the options are useful (COR merits)
3. Your choice is actually about what job you are willing to gimp

In other words, you always have a choice.

It is pretty difficult to make any choices that render a job entirely unusable in content. In fact, I'd argue that's not possible. I don't believe any merit category that goes cross job renders any job unplayable; nor does your choices within any job category have any potential to render that job unplayable.

And that's what matters. Your choices do not prevent you from using any job in the game. Therefore, it is customization without cripplization.

Yay, let's keep limits on merits so that way it's even harder to find people to do things with.

Merit limits do not make it harder to find people to do things with. The choice to level (and gear up) or not level a job alone does that. You overstate the impact of the system immensely. I have not merited a WS for my DRK. I guarantee you if I joined a party as DRK, I'd still be able to do my job and unless I screwed something up, I wouldn't be getting kicked (same as anybody else).

YOU. DO. NOT. NEED. EVERY. MERIT. ON. EVERY. JOB. to be able to use that job in content. It is completely possible and doable. The only problem here is the demand of the people in this thread to be PERFECT at everything.

Limits are part of good game design. Or maybe we should just forget limits, start everyone with all 99 jobs and give them full sets of i119 gear, that way everyone can play all content without any effort! That EXP getting progress limits my gameplay way too much! oh, don't forget gil, that limits my gameplay too, lets get rid of that.

...... Anyway, this thread was about the WS limits specifically. My argument is that the absense of any of these weaponskills on any job doesn't make you suddenly unable to play that job. The job doesn't lock out, you don't suddenly do zero damage, it's still fully playable in every way. As long as that holds true, there is no significant problem with the merit system. Being a little better / worse at an individual job != not being able to play it if it's needed and nobody else can do it.

[Malithar]

In other words, you always have a choice.

Between optimization or not optimizing. What's the logical choice?

And that's what matters. Your choices do not prevent you from using any job in the game. Therefore, it is customization without cripplization.

Merit limits do not make it harder to find people to do things with. The choice to level (and gear up) or not level a job alone does that. You overstate the impact of the system immensely. I have not merited a WS for my DRK. I guarantee you if I joined a party as DRK, I'd still be able to do my job and unless I screwed something up, I wouldn't be getting kicked (same as anybody else).

Torclever is terrible, and GSD has nothing else available, and Scythe is pretty much a utility weapon at this point. As your job is a DD, how do you expect to perform your job as a DD to the fullest of your ability without having a solid DD WS? Is that just it, you don't expect to perform to the fullest of your ability, and you settle for mediocrity? Not trying to be insulting, but that's a really terrible example to give for the benefit of your argument.

Furthermore, I'd argue it actually is quite a crippling system. Lets take a hypothetical mage only character that decides to level a DD job, lets say Rng. Being mage only, they've stuck their merits into Mnd, Int, Club, Staff, defensive skills, and idk, sword or something for a Rdm, as well as 5/5ing the corresponding WSs. Cool beans. Now lets bring that Rng to a VD fight. They're missing 12 Str/Agi merits, 8 weapon merits, and a stronger WS (barring relic, ignore enmity for this example.) That may not sound like much, but that's giving them a lower fStr, lower accuracy, less WS damage, and less RAtt. Without removing merits from their mage jobs, they're stuck without these benefits. I'm not going to say this Rng is now crippled and incapable of doing said content. But should they really be hindered for their choices in merits? Is that really something you believe is fair?

Limits are part of good game design.

In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree.