[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Camiie]

If you have other suggestion about how to improve the role playing experience in FFXI, feel free to let the dev know.

Until then the merit point system or something similar is the best this game can get.

There's nothing anti-RPG about having an open system. Just because it isn't common that doesn't make it wrong.

Now you're starting to give bad examples lol.

How so? You guys want specialization within jobs? You guys want limitations? Well there ya go. Alhanelem himself said that gear is everything these days. What better place to introduce specialization in a game that's heavily driven by gear? Spells are just skills that cost MP. Why not force mages to choose certain spells over others? If limiting weapon skills is good then limiting spells should be as well. Pets define pet jobs do they not? Why not force those jobs to specialize so that they aren't all throwing the same few pets at everything?

I don't believe your "play style" can set you apart, this game doesn't allow players to develop their own play style. This isn't FTG or RTS, this is a RPG and the right way for a RPG game to develop play style is through stat limitation and skill selection.

It can and it does. Just because it isn't a game that relies heavily on manual dexterity that doesn't mean there aren't differences in how people do things.

Also, your personality doesn't set you apart either, because it doesn't affect the game play. When I'm talking about "being unique" it's from gameplay's POV.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

If the limitation of the number of merit WS is affecting the job performance that much, then the right solution is to buff the 2nd best WS choice, not removing the RPG element.

I have no problem with buffing the 2nd best WS, but what if I'm trying to role play a Mary Sue shonen anime type character who can perform any technique after seeing it done once. You're limiting the RPG element for me here.

Bow RNG with 1/5 apex is just fine cuz they can use JR, MNK with 1/5 merit is just fine because they can use VS. I've never seen a pt lead complain about VS MNK and JR RNG. The merit WS is situational.

Yeah you Victory Smite the raptor in Morimar or the pugil in Foret and see if someone doesn't complain.

This is what makes RPG RPG. When you click "+" on STR and DEX your WIS and INT is forever gimped and vice versa. You simply shouldn't be allowed to be the best at everything because thats how RPG goes for past 30 years. RPG is supposed to be life simulator focus on stats and number. Irl most ppl can't get everything. Someone spent their entire life getting stronger gets higher STR but lower INT WIS, someone spent their entire life studying gets higher INT WIS but lower STR. Because you only have 24 hr a day and you can't get everything, you can only pick one area and focus.

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

In game you can't really simulate the result of your choice since the time flow is faster, if you don't set limitation everyone can just get everything and they no longer need to make choices. So the only way that can force the player to make choices about life is through + and - on stats. Or else there are no decision to be made and everyone just cap everything.

If you want equal footing with other players, play RTS or FTG. But please don't kill my RPG experience. I want "+" and "-" on stats in this game like in other games.

So it's perfectly fine for YOU to kill MY experience, but yours must never be impacted in any way. Well aren't you the tolerant sort?

[Afania]

How so? You guys want specialization within jobs? You guys want limitations? Well there ya go. Alhanelem himself said that gear is everything these days. What better place to introduce specialization in a game that's heavily driven by gear? Spells are just skills that cost MP. Why not force mages to choose certain spells over others? If limiting weapon skills is good then limiting spells should be as well. Pets define pet jobs do they not? Why not force those jobs to specialize so that they aren't all throwing the same few pets at everything?

Because the game content is already designed and balanced based on the fact that everyone can get all spells. Obviously it's silly to ask the dev to remove the access to certain spells/JA. That'd make the content a lot harder than it is now. Further more there are too many junk spells that there isn't much choice to make anyways.

It IS possible to create a game that forces the mages to choose certain spell over others, just not in this game. But in many other RPG I've played you do have to choose. Limiting spells isn't "wrong" design, just wouldn't work in this game.

It can and it does. Just because it isn't a game that relies heavily on manual dexterity that doesn't mean there aren't differences in how people do things.



In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

Well, if you insist to play WHMinja, GS PLD or bow SAM then maybe that's different playstyle! But that's not enough, IMO. Until you can play WHMinja, GS PLD or bow SAM full time and no one in the pt give you shit storm about it, there still more room for creative freedom.

You are right, if you seriously go digging about it you CAN find a situation that allows different play style, but only in extremely niche situation and it's limited to certain jobs.

Limitation through merit applies to all jobs and it's effective all the time, it's a more powerful way to force the player to make choices.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

But what you say doesn't affect the actual gameplay. You can't change the story nor attribute by speaking in /p /l or /tell, unlike other RPG.

I have no problem with buffing the 2nd best WS, but what if I'm trying to role play a Mary Sue shonen anime type character who can perform any technique after seeing it done once. You're limiting the RPG element for me here.

If a character that's capable of doing any technique after seeing it done once, he/she should have a weakness: He/she will be suck at the technique.

So yeah, 1/5 it is

RPG element isn't "Hey, I wanna role play a super saiyen, please give me all stat 999 thank you". If you think you can be what you want to be in a RPG game, just because it's RPG, then you don't really know the meaning behind it.

Yeah you Victory Smite the raptor in Morimar or the pugil in Foret and see if someone doesn't complain.

You can VS on raptor just fine. Heck I even dia it.

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

And the designer wants the game to have limitation, why are you fighting against it?

So it's perfectly fine for YOU to kill MY experience, but yours must never be impacted in any way. Well aren't you the tolerant sort?

This game's been like that for years though, if it's not tolerable you'd leave already. But you didn't, so you can tolerate it

[Alhanelem]

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

Still waiting for the game to "shatter the mold."

There are game design reasons when you don't just let everyone get all of everything. Making decisions about your character (or party in a single player game) is supposed to be one of the elements of challenge, fun, and creativity in an RPG. Over the years though, decisions have been gradually getting stripped from just about every MMO in existence. You see a lot more people creating nonsensical names for their avatars because they can just pay to change them later. You see people making hasty decisions about their appearance because they can pay to change it later. People feel compelled to get every item for every job because the game lets them even though they don't have to. Letting people have everything creates as many problems as it solves. In most single player RPGs you have to make a decision at every turn, a decision that affects the outcome of a battle, a decision that affects the story, and a decision that irrevocably changes your characters. But put those things in an online RPG and everyone will beg for it to be removed. Why is this? can people just not handle decision making?

bla bla bla bla bla. You don't need to be the best at all 22 jobs, but that also doesn't mean you can't actually use all 22 of them. Why not enjoy choosing a path for your character instead of resenting the fact that a decision needs to be made?

Hell, I chose to be a Galka. Then I chose to be a summoner. Back when the game was new, you can predict the crap I got for doing that. Now, nobody cares. I can do my job just as well as any other SMN, and I can assure you my merits are probably not the same as yours. I chose to "waste" my merits on certain WS. Suprise! I can still play as my SCH or DNC or DRK if I really want to.

[Ramzi]

Dumb question, but how is a party leader going to know if you are lying if you say "yes, I have 5/5 Shijin Spiral" but in reality you only have 3/5... or even 1/5. The max multiplier is 85% and min is 73%. With enemy defenses and randomness thrown in, I wouldn't think it would be THAT noticeable. Especially considering they don't know how much dex you have at any given time. I guess my point is, if you are worried about elitists not inviting you for not having maxed merit WS just lie about it. No party leader should be that picky anyway, and it will not make the difference between winning and losing Tojil. If it does, you are deficient in other areas.

[Malithar]

Because the game content is already designed and balanced based on the fact that everyone can get all spells. Obviously it's silly to ask the dev to remove the access to certain spells/JA. That'd make the content a lot harder than it is now. Further more there are too many junk spells that there isn't much choice to make anyways.

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

[Afania]

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

I do agree that the cap between merit WS and 2nd best WS for some jobs needs to be fixed, but they should have fix that first. Those who argued that "my job isn't playable without merit WS" should look at bow RNG. I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

[Malithar]

I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

I wouldn't argue if 1/5 and 5/5 were brought even closer together, but personally, I'd question the point of 5/5 if it was anything less than 10% difference. I'd prolly just go 1/5 wild and get everything, and choose a few to 2-3/5.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

As above, I'd question the point of going 5/5 then. If they did solve it with additional effects, it would need to be something that was balanced, but enticing.

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I don't really care, as my enjoyment in this game comes from about 4 jobs. But I know plenty who would prefer to be able to play their side jobs to the fullest of their ability, in a sense, making them no longer side jobs, but best geared/merited jobs. Instead, they're relegated to the closet since they're not able to. There's no real comparison I can make to other games, simply because their answer to such a thing is "reroll!"

[Byrth]

Malithar just laid out Argument B2 from this thread.

[Afania]

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I can also argue that when you picked DD path for paladin in other MMORPG your tanking ability is forever gimped, thus it's affected in a negative way. But you probably won't accept it because you are arguing against merit system from game mechanic's POV, but I'm defending the merit system from role playing's POV.

I think we also have different POV toward the job change system. You seem to view job change system similar to what they do in FFXIV, job change is just, job change, like creating a new character in other MMO but with exactly same quest/PVP progression.

I always feel job change in FFXI is different though, it's related to part of the character and not just "another class I can play when I feel like I need it/want to". Like how a scientist that's good at math but has terrible artistic skill irl, he can't be good at everything. Merit point system simply just reflect that. Your argument is certainly legit, that irl the scientist that's bad at math would probably never want to/need to be an artist unlike FFXI you'd often need to job change. But I also have to point out no content require you to have perfect merit for that job to win. I agree that in the case of merit point WS it's a bit too extreme since certain jobs are not playable without the WS, but things like HP/MP and stats merit it doesn't really affect your win rate in content. If you want to argue against merit point system, at least consider that fact.

[Nappy]

Man are ppl really that hard up for ~200 more dmg per ws on avg?