[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Afania]

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

I do agree that the cap between merit WS and 2nd best WS for some jobs needs to be fixed, but they should have fix that first. Those who argued that "my job isn't playable without merit WS" should look at bow RNG. I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

[Malithar]

I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

I wouldn't argue if 1/5 and 5/5 were brought even closer together, but personally, I'd question the point of 5/5 if it was anything less than 10% difference. I'd prolly just go 1/5 wild and get everything, and choose a few to 2-3/5.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

As above, I'd question the point of going 5/5 then. If they did solve it with additional effects, it would need to be something that was balanced, but enticing.

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I don't really care, as my enjoyment in this game comes from about 4 jobs. But I know plenty who would prefer to be able to play their side jobs to the fullest of their ability, in a sense, making them no longer side jobs, but best geared/merited jobs. Instead, they're relegated to the closet since they're not able to. There's no real comparison I can make to other games, simply because their answer to such a thing is "reroll!"

[Afania]

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I can also argue that when you picked DD path for paladin in other MMORPG your tanking ability is forever gimped, thus it's affected in a negative way. But you probably won't accept it because you are arguing against merit system from game mechanic's POV, but I'm defending the merit system from role playing's POV.

I think we also have different POV toward the job change system. You seem to view job change system similar to what they do in FFXIV, job change is just, job change, like creating a new character in other MMO but with exactly same quest/PVP progression.

I always feel job change in FFXI is different though, it's related to part of the character and not just "another class I can play when I feel like I need it/want to". Like how a scientist that's good at math but has terrible artistic skill irl, he can't be good at everything. Merit point system simply just reflect that. Your argument is certainly legit, that irl the scientist that's bad at math would probably never want to/need to be an artist unlike FFXI you'd often need to job change. But I also have to point out no content require you to have perfect merit for that job to win. I agree that in the case of merit point WS it's a bit too extreme since certain jobs are not playable without the WS, but things like HP/MP and stats merit it doesn't really affect your win rate in content. If you want to argue against merit point system, at least consider that fact.