[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Byrth]

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system. They should remove category caps.

[Alhanelem]

Why not just limit the number of jobs we can level if limits and specialization are the bees knees?

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole. Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

It's about making your character different from others in small ways, and frankly I think it's even more important consider how easy it is now to get every job maxed. Why does standing out on your favorite job seem like such a terrible thing to you? It doesn't render your other jobs unplayable, especially under the ilvl system where gear > everything else.

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system.

It's really not. Everyone who makes this argument acts as if the system prevents you from playing XYZ jobs when it doesn't at all.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

I've only bothered to cap 6 jobs. My merits are entirely focused on 2 of them. However, I'm completely still able to use the other 4 jobs in content. So, personally, I don't see the problem. You don't need the club or staff ws to play the jobs that use those weapons, you don't need all your merits in HP to be able to play a tank, you don't need all your attributes in INT to play your BLM.

The whole premise of the merit system was to give your favorite jobs a boost, not to lock you out of playing other jobs (and it doesn't).

Like I said, I can agree for "specialization" to a certain extent but I'd like to be able to 5/5 at least 2 more WS

I'm totally fine with that, and it should totally happen. I'm only against completely removing all limits on everything.

[Kensagaku]

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole. Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

I have to disagree with this, in a lot of situations. Without having the merit WS, you are often in a lot of situations where you are undesirable.

Shijin Spiral - Even if you have Victory Smite, there are times in Delve and in Skirmish III where you want to avoid magic damage, including Skillchain damage. Stacking Shijins is most effective in this situation, because they don't skillchain together. With MNKs being a common staple of groups, this tends to be important.

Requiescat - Being able to bypass defense types is vital in some situations; it makes the bee Delve easier, helps in Foret, etc. Formless is one of the few other forms of non-elemental damage we have, so this is a strongly useful WS. CDC is nice, but often doesn't stack up in newer content.

Resolution - If you're a DRK without this, kiss invites goodbye. Apoc with Cata isn't bad, but when you have healers, that extra survivability often isn't worth the DPS loss. RUN (if you can get invites in the first place!) benefits greatly from this for hate building. The DRK point is more relevant though.

Stardiver - Unless you have a Ryunohige, this is DRG's bread-and-butter WS. Critical Evasion- is a huge DPS boost for the whole alliance, especially those using crit WS such as Ukko's or Victory Smite. Drakesbane, short of a Ryuno, has a hard time competing. So this is fairly vital.

Last Stand - On COR, this is your WS of choice. Wildfire isn't bad, but it tends to get a fair amount of resistance of late, and there are monsters that you just need a physical WS. I'd say RNG but a "serious" RNG should have either Namas or Coronach available to them for low enmity.

Apex Arrow - Short of having a relic, this is the WS of choice for RNGs. Being a non-Relic RNG myself, I use this in events. While I'm not shot-for-shot keeping up with the relic users, my WS averages aren't terribly far from theirs, and allows me to be an effective DD. So short of requiring a relic, this and Last Stand are needed for RNG.

Ruinator - While Rampage is a doable WS, it is nothing compared to Ruinator's impressive damage. For BST, or for a WAR or RUN wielding axes (it does happen, situationally), this is the best WS available by a long shot.

So that's seven right there. And I'm sure other jobs need them in their own ways, but you could argue against their Empy WS too; Upheaval v. Ukkos, Shoha v. Fudo, maybe Apex v. Jishnu's. But while you argue that merit WS are just "customizations to improve your favorite jobs", often we don't get to play our favorite jobs, and we need to improve our quality on other jobs. I can't tell you the last time I went DRG to an event, or BLU aside from Voidwatch. Never taken RUN to anything seriously, or PUP. So should I just 5/5 three of those (prolly Stardiver/Requiescat/Resolution) and when I'm needed on RNG, toss Arching Arrow? Or if I'm asked to go on MNK, should I just Asuran Fists and hope I don't skillchain?

However, I do agree with your final point. I'm not so sure on a complete uncapping, but I would like to see the restrictions eased a bit. Even if it's just doubling the amount of WS you can 5/5; 6 would be an effective number.

[Camate]

Hello, everyone.

Adjustments were previously made so that simply having a merit point weapon skill unlocked would still deal practical damage without having to upgrade it. We’d like players to choose whether they want to master a single weapon skill or use merit points to unlock weapon skills that can be used for multiple jobs. As such we do not have any plans at the moment to increase the cap.

In the upcoming version update, we will be making adjustments to weapon skills as a whole, and I believe this will open up the selection of weapon skills that can be used besides the ones learned with merit points. We’d first like to see game conditions after these adjustments are implemented.

[Demonjustin]

Adjustments were previously made so that simply having a merit point weapon skill unlocked would still deal practical damage without having to upgrade it. We’d like players to choose whether they want to master a single weapon skill or use merit points to unlock weapon skills that can be used for multiple jobs. As such we do not have any plans at the moment to increase the cap.

A noble attempt, but a failed attempt. This is a player base that has strived for the optimum for many, many years now. To give us a system which is based on the idea of compromise and not expecting us to still optimize and go with 5/5 WSs rather than a few 1/5s with a 5/5 or 2 is just not paying attention to how we function. This is the very reason why Merits as a whole have been broken for a while now, we all see a few things that are fantastic and a few that really suck, the ones that suck we simply ignore, the ones that are great we max out. When it comes to Merit WSs almost all are great, and as a result we pick a few jobs to max out and complain we can't get the rest. If that never changes then neither will our complaining.

You can't change how we function, I wish you could as it would solve many community issues too, but you just can't do it. This will remain an issue with players until the game changes to accommodate or is shut down as it's really a matter of how many people who play this game are. We strive for the best, offering us powerful but weaker WSs with 1/5 is akin to offering us NQ gear vs HQ gear, many people will take that HQ even if it costs them an arm and a leg in return.

[Alhanelem]

A noble attempt, but a failed attempt. This is a player base that has strived for the optimum for many, many years now.

This is a defect of the hardcore playerbase (which is mostly all that is left in the game at this point) being perfectionist/elitist rather than a defect of the system, in my opinion. Your typical run of the mill player who doesn't care if he's winning a parsing contest will still get enough damage out of a merit WS with less than 5 points for it to be worth using.

Now I agree with your other statement that you can't really change people. I'm just pointing out that "in theory" it was a reasonable solution to provide the choice between versatility and minimaxed performance on a few jobs that was intended by the merit system at its inception.

many people will take that HQ even if it costs them an arm and a leg in return.

and "many people" will also take the cheaper option (the analogy is not so great). Be careful in using weasel words like "many" that cloud perception. Also using the word "we" when you don't necessarily represent everyone here is not a great idea either.

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Honestly I'm oging to wager that they plan to bring up existing WS to the power level of most of the merit WS so choosing a WS will be more about the additional effects, skillchain attributes, and other things rather than the raw damage value.

[Demonjustin]

This is a defect of the hardcore playerbase (which is mostly all that is left in the game at this point) being perfectionist/elitist rather than a defect of the system, in my opinion. Your typical run of the mill player who doesn't care if he's winning a parsing contest will still get enough damage out of a merit WS with less than 5 points for it to be worth using.

Sometimes it's not about a parse, but viability and victory. Extra damage in some cases such as Tojil for instance can mean the difference between a win and a loss, kill to slowly and you fail due to stun resistance that only becomes an issue when your damage overall is too slow to kill. Making a weapon skill weaker by taking merits out of it for other WSs which will also be on the weaker end can aid failure in this way. As for viability I'm referring to something along the lines of how Req is hardly ever the best WS for RDM, CDC almost always beats it as a WS and if you have fewer merits in Req you're only going to see Req's gap become larger and larger with fewer places to make use of it.

I don't mean to say that 1/5 WSs don't have a place or that they're not at all worth doing but even some of the on this forum seem to be in the mindset of having only 3 5/5 WSs and simply re-meriting them to another WS if need be. I know many people in game who do this as well. I won't say everyone does but I've met enough players both casual and hardcore who stick to the idea of 5/5 only to say that I honestly believe the idea of leaving it as it is right now is only going to leave us with a flawed system that few are happy with.

While it also may be a defect or flaw with the hardcore players in your opinion I honestly find it more a defect with the game, as many people have pointed out in the past the great advantage to this game so few others have is that all jobs and all possibilities are open to any character. Merits however are the exact opposite of that idea, restricting the freedom of players and instead forcing strict choices upon them and as a result we've narrowed most merits down to right & wrong choices with Merit WSs being the most difficult choice to make and truly only being dependant on the jobs you play or favor most. I honestly think that Job Points are a step in the right direction in this field in a way since they are unlimited unlike merit points, allowing us to cap every category at will provided we are willing to farm the points necessary to do so. They are also taking that sort of path with HP/MP/Merit, merits. We will be able to cap all things within those categories which I personally think is another example of moving in that direction of complete freedom to optimize at will rather than restricting us to making choices that will almost certainly leave some choices unchosen.

Honestly I'm going to wager that they plan to bring up existing WS to the power level of most of the merit WS so choosing a WS will be more about the additional effects, skillchain attributes, and other things rather than the raw damage value.

As much as I'd like this to be the case, I doubt it will happen. With how WS Mods work unless they almost completely removed them from making much of a difference I doubt it would even be possible to truly balance their DMG, at best I think we'd see more of what we see now where in some situations one WS wins and in another situations a different one wins with the only real differences between the situations being the mob and your buffs.

[Alhanelem]

Sometimes it's not about a parse, but viability and victory.

And I would argue those WS are still able to produce "viability and victory" with less than 5 points in them. How is this not about a parse, lol? 2150 damage vs 2100 when your auto attack remains the same is very unlikely to alter your chance of winning. I did make up those numbers, but the point i'm trying to convey is that the difference between maxed out and not maxed out is not very big.

While it also may be a defect or flaw with the hardcore players in your opinion I honestly find it more a defect with the game,

This is mostly a matter of perspective. You, like other people that tend to frequent a game's forums, are likely a more serious player than the average and demand a higher standard than necessary to achieve your goals (there's nothing wrong with that per se, I'm just making a point). This system does not restrict you from playing any job, literally or effectively. You dont' need 5/5 in every WS to be able to use them and get worthwhile results. There's a difference between that and not being able to play the job-a difference as wide and deep as the grand canyon.

As much as I'd like this to be the case, I doubt it will happen.

They said they intend to rebalance older WS, there would be no point in doing so if it didn't make at least one or two other WS per weapon viable for content. If it doesn't, it would be a totally wasted effort, so in this case I'll choose optimistic over cynical.

[Camiie]

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole.

Yes, I feel quite special when I can't max out that new job I fell in love without nerfing that other one I also love. When I can't bring something to the table I get nothing but praise and appreciation from those around me. It's like that time before I had all my BLM spells, and everyone was just so impressed that I was lacking spells that other BLMs had.

Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

You could say that about everything really, but many of those other things have no limits. So why is it a good thing here but not everywhere? Why am I allowed to obtain and upgrade all the JSE sets for example? Why, if I had the resources, am I allowed to make all the RMEs? Why am I allowed to learn all the spells on my BLM? Why can a BST call any jug pet? Why can your PUP call all the automatons? Wouldn't you rather have specialization and only be able to call one or two auto types? That way yours and someone else's are potentially different.

It's about making your character different from others in small ways, and frankly I think it's even more important consider how easy it is now to get every job maxed. Why does standing out on your favorite job seem like such a terrible thing to you? It doesn't render your other jobs unplayable, especially under the ilvl system where gear > everything else.

First of all my character stands out from others quite a bit because I have no interest in leveling or gearing every job, and my choices are rather eclectic. I'm also an Elvaan female and the only one who runs with my groups these days. Most of all, my play style and personality set me apart from others, for better or worse. I don't need an arbitrary limit to make me unique. I don't feel diminished when other people have the same stuff as me or can do the same things. Conversely I don't feel good when I can't do something they can.

It's really not. Everyone who makes this argument acts as if the system prevents you from playing XYZ jobs when it doesn't at all.

Don't tell me that. Tell the exclusionary party leaders who demand perfection and completeness even where it isn't required.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

You act as though one can't be the best at their preferred jobs while also having all WS options available for others.

I've only bothered to cap 6 jobs. My merits are entirely focused on 2 of them. However, I'm completely still able to use the other 4 jobs in content. So, personally, I don't see the problem. You don't need the club or staff ws to play the jobs that use those weapons, you don't need all your merits in HP to be able to play a tank, you don't need all your attributes in INT to play your BLM.

The whole premise of the merit system was to give your favorite jobs a boost, not to lock you out of playing other jobs (and it doesn't).

But it does! Just because it works for you doesn't mean others aren't suffering ill effects from the limitations. If you don't have all your ducks in a row on a job but 3 other people do then who's going to get chosen? It won't be you unless you have an in with the group leader. The "system" may not limit you, but perception is reality and the prevailing perception is that if you don't have it you are weak compared to someone who does. And that job you decided to focus all your merits in at the expense of all others because you love it so much? Chances are high that it's a job that's considered useless compared to the 5 or 6 that are favored.

[Afania]

Yes, I feel quite special when I can't max out that new job I fell in love without nerfing that other one I also love. When I can't bring something to the table I get nothing but praise and appreciation from those around me. It's like that time before I had all my BLM spells, and everyone was just so impressed that I was lacking spells that other BLMs had.

If you have other suggestion about how to improve the role playing experience in FFXI, feel free to let the dev know.

Until then the merit point system or something similar is the best this game can get.

You could say that about everything really, but many of those other things have no limits. So why is it a good thing here but not everywhere? Why am I allowed to obtain and upgrade all the JSE sets for example? Why, if I had the resources, am I allowed to make all the RMEs? Why am I allowed to learn all the spells on my BLM? Why can a BST call any jug pet? Why can your PUP call all the automatons? Wouldn't you rather have specialization and only be able to call one or two auto types? That way yours and someone else's are potentially different.

Now you're starting to give bad examples lol.

First of all my character stands out from others quite a bit because I have no interest in leveling or gearing every job, and my choices are rather eclectic. I'm also an Elvaan female and the only one who runs with my groups these days. Most of all, my play style and personality set me apart from others, for better or worse. I don't need an arbitrary limit to make me unique. I don't feel diminished when other people have the same stuff as me or can do the same things. Conversely I don't feel good when I can't do something they can.

I don't believe your "play style" can set you apart, this game doesn't allow players to develop their own play style. This isn't FTG or RTS, this is a RPG and the right way for a RPG game to develop play style is through stat limitation and skill selection.

Also, your personality doesn't set you apart either, because it doesn't affect the game play. When I'm talking about "being unique" it's from gameplay's POV.

Don't tell me that. Tell the exclusionary party leaders who demand perfection and completeness even where it isn't required.

If the limitation of the number of merit WS is affecting the job performance that much, then the right solution is to buff the 2nd best WS choice, not removing the RPG element.

Bow RNG with 1/5 apex is just fine cuz they can use JR, MNK with 1/5 merit is just fine because they can use VS. I've never seen a pt lead complain about VS MNK and JR RNG. The merit WS is situational.

But it does! Just because it works for you doesn't mean others aren't suffering ill effects from the limitations. If you don't have all your ducks in a row on a job but 3 other people do then who's going to get chosen? It won't be you unless you have an in with the group leader. The "system" may not limit you, but perception is reality and the prevailing perception is that if you don't have it you are weak compared to someone who does. And that job you decided to focus all your merits in at the expense of all others because you love it so much? Chances are high that it's a job that's considered useless compared to the 5 or 6 that are favored.

This is what makes RPG RPG. When you click "+" on STR and DEX your WIS and INT is forever gimped and vice versa. You simply shouldn't be allowed to be the best at everything because thats how RPG goes for past 30 years. RPG is supposed to be life simulator focus on stats and number. Irl most ppl can't get everything. Someone spent their entire life getting stronger gets higher STR but lower INT WIS, someone spent their entire life studying gets higher INT WIS but lower STR. Because you only have 24 hr a day and you can't get everything, you can only pick one area and focus.

In game you can't really simulate the result of your choice since the time flow is faster, if you don't set limitation everyone can just get everything and they no longer need to make choices. So the only way that can force the player to make choices about life is through + and - on stats. Or else there are no decision to be made and everyone just cap everything.

If you want equal footing with other players, play RTS or FTG. But please don't kill my RPG experience. I want "+" and "-" on stats in this game like in other games.

B.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

Nah, I support your opinion and that makes it two of us

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system. They should remove category caps.

No specialization is the antithesis of MMORPG. Job system is just a system, MMORPG is the genre of this game, the fundamental of a game. If the system contradicts the fundamental, fundamental takes the priority.