[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Alhanelem]

Why not just limit the number of jobs we can level if limits and specialization are the bees knees?

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole. Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

It's about making your character different from others in small ways, and frankly I think it's even more important consider how easy it is now to get every job maxed. Why does standing out on your favorite job seem like such a terrible thing to you? It doesn't render your other jobs unplayable, especially under the ilvl system where gear > everything else.

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system.

It's really not. Everyone who makes this argument acts as if the system prevents you from playing XYZ jobs when it doesn't at all.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

I've only bothered to cap 6 jobs. My merits are entirely focused on 2 of them. However, I'm completely still able to use the other 4 jobs in content. So, personally, I don't see the problem. You don't need the club or staff ws to play the jobs that use those weapons, you don't need all your merits in HP to be able to play a tank, you don't need all your attributes in INT to play your BLM.

The whole premise of the merit system was to give your favorite jobs a boost, not to lock you out of playing other jobs (and it doesn't).

Like I said, I can agree for "specialization" to a certain extent but I'd like to be able to 5/5 at least 2 more WS

I'm totally fine with that, and it should totally happen. I'm only against completely removing all limits on everything.

[Kensagaku]

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole. Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

I have to disagree with this, in a lot of situations. Without having the merit WS, you are often in a lot of situations where you are undesirable.

Shijin Spiral - Even if you have Victory Smite, there are times in Delve and in Skirmish III where you want to avoid magic damage, including Skillchain damage. Stacking Shijins is most effective in this situation, because they don't skillchain together. With MNKs being a common staple of groups, this tends to be important.

Requiescat - Being able to bypass defense types is vital in some situations; it makes the bee Delve easier, helps in Foret, etc. Formless is one of the few other forms of non-elemental damage we have, so this is a strongly useful WS. CDC is nice, but often doesn't stack up in newer content.

Resolution - If you're a DRK without this, kiss invites goodbye. Apoc with Cata isn't bad, but when you have healers, that extra survivability often isn't worth the DPS loss. RUN (if you can get invites in the first place!) benefits greatly from this for hate building. The DRK point is more relevant though.

Stardiver - Unless you have a Ryunohige, this is DRG's bread-and-butter WS. Critical Evasion- is a huge DPS boost for the whole alliance, especially those using crit WS such as Ukko's or Victory Smite. Drakesbane, short of a Ryuno, has a hard time competing. So this is fairly vital.

Last Stand - On COR, this is your WS of choice. Wildfire isn't bad, but it tends to get a fair amount of resistance of late, and there are monsters that you just need a physical WS. I'd say RNG but a "serious" RNG should have either Namas or Coronach available to them for low enmity.

Apex Arrow - Short of having a relic, this is the WS of choice for RNGs. Being a non-Relic RNG myself, I use this in events. While I'm not shot-for-shot keeping up with the relic users, my WS averages aren't terribly far from theirs, and allows me to be an effective DD. So short of requiring a relic, this and Last Stand are needed for RNG.

Ruinator - While Rampage is a doable WS, it is nothing compared to Ruinator's impressive damage. For BST, or for a WAR or RUN wielding axes (it does happen, situationally), this is the best WS available by a long shot.

So that's seven right there. And I'm sure other jobs need them in their own ways, but you could argue against their Empy WS too; Upheaval v. Ukkos, Shoha v. Fudo, maybe Apex v. Jishnu's. But while you argue that merit WS are just "customizations to improve your favorite jobs", often we don't get to play our favorite jobs, and we need to improve our quality on other jobs. I can't tell you the last time I went DRG to an event, or BLU aside from Voidwatch. Never taken RUN to anything seriously, or PUP. So should I just 5/5 three of those (prolly Stardiver/Requiescat/Resolution) and when I'm needed on RNG, toss Arching Arrow? Or if I'm asked to go on MNK, should I just Asuran Fists and hope I don't skillchain?

However, I do agree with your final point. I'm not so sure on a complete uncapping, but I would like to see the restrictions eased a bit. Even if it's just doubling the amount of WS you can 5/5; 6 would be an effective number.

[Camiie]

Because it's about specialization *within each job* not your character as a whole.

Yes, I feel quite special when I can't max out that new job I fell in love without nerfing that other one I also love. When I can't bring something to the table I get nothing but praise and appreciation from those around me. It's like that time before I had all my BLM spells, and everyone was just so impressed that I was lacking spells that other BLMs had.

Also, the merit WS are hardly all absolute requirements.

You could say that about everything really, but many of those other things have no limits. So why is it a good thing here but not everywhere? Why am I allowed to obtain and upgrade all the JSE sets for example? Why, if I had the resources, am I allowed to make all the RMEs? Why am I allowed to learn all the spells on my BLM? Why can a BST call any jug pet? Why can your PUP call all the automatons? Wouldn't you rather have specialization and only be able to call one or two auto types? That way yours and someone else's are potentially different.

It's about making your character different from others in small ways, and frankly I think it's even more important consider how easy it is now to get every job maxed. Why does standing out on your favorite job seem like such a terrible thing to you? It doesn't render your other jobs unplayable, especially under the ilvl system where gear > everything else.

First of all my character stands out from others quite a bit because I have no interest in leveling or gearing every job, and my choices are rather eclectic. I'm also an Elvaan female and the only one who runs with my groups these days. Most of all, my play style and personality set me apart from others, for better or worse. I don't need an arbitrary limit to make me unique. I don't feel diminished when other people have the same stuff as me or can do the same things. Conversely I don't feel good when I can't do something they can.

It's really not. Everyone who makes this argument acts as if the system prevents you from playing XYZ jobs when it doesn't at all.

Don't tell me that. Tell the exclusionary party leaders who demand perfection and completeness even where it isn't required.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

You act as though one can't be the best at their preferred jobs while also having all WS options available for others.

I've only bothered to cap 6 jobs. My merits are entirely focused on 2 of them. However, I'm completely still able to use the other 4 jobs in content. So, personally, I don't see the problem. You don't need the club or staff ws to play the jobs that use those weapons, you don't need all your merits in HP to be able to play a tank, you don't need all your attributes in INT to play your BLM.

The whole premise of the merit system was to give your favorite jobs a boost, not to lock you out of playing other jobs (and it doesn't).

But it does! Just because it works for you doesn't mean others aren't suffering ill effects from the limitations. If you don't have all your ducks in a row on a job but 3 other people do then who's going to get chosen? It won't be you unless you have an in with the group leader. The "system" may not limit you, but perception is reality and the prevailing perception is that if you don't have it you are weak compared to someone who does. And that job you decided to focus all your merits in at the expense of all others because you love it so much? Chances are high that it's a job that's considered useless compared to the 5 or 6 that are favored.

[Afania]

Yes, I feel quite special when I can't max out that new job I fell in love without nerfing that other one I also love. When I can't bring something to the table I get nothing but praise and appreciation from those around me. It's like that time before I had all my BLM spells, and everyone was just so impressed that I was lacking spells that other BLMs had.

If you have other suggestion about how to improve the role playing experience in FFXI, feel free to let the dev know.

Until then the merit point system or something similar is the best this game can get.

You could say that about everything really, but many of those other things have no limits. So why is it a good thing here but not everywhere? Why am I allowed to obtain and upgrade all the JSE sets for example? Why, if I had the resources, am I allowed to make all the RMEs? Why am I allowed to learn all the spells on my BLM? Why can a BST call any jug pet? Why can your PUP call all the automatons? Wouldn't you rather have specialization and only be able to call one or two auto types? That way yours and someone else's are potentially different.

Now you're starting to give bad examples lol.

First of all my character stands out from others quite a bit because I have no interest in leveling or gearing every job, and my choices are rather eclectic. I'm also an Elvaan female and the only one who runs with my groups these days. Most of all, my play style and personality set me apart from others, for better or worse. I don't need an arbitrary limit to make me unique. I don't feel diminished when other people have the same stuff as me or can do the same things. Conversely I don't feel good when I can't do something they can.

I don't believe your "play style" can set you apart, this game doesn't allow players to develop their own play style. This isn't FTG or RTS, this is a RPG and the right way for a RPG game to develop play style is through stat limitation and skill selection.

Also, your personality doesn't set you apart either, because it doesn't affect the game play. When I'm talking about "being unique" it's from gameplay's POV.

Don't tell me that. Tell the exclusionary party leaders who demand perfection and completeness even where it isn't required.

If the limitation of the number of merit WS is affecting the job performance that much, then the right solution is to buff the 2nd best WS choice, not removing the RPG element.

Bow RNG with 1/5 apex is just fine cuz they can use JR, MNK with 1/5 merit is just fine because they can use VS. I've never seen a pt lead complain about VS MNK and JR RNG. The merit WS is situational.

But it does! Just because it works for you doesn't mean others aren't suffering ill effects from the limitations. If you don't have all your ducks in a row on a job but 3 other people do then who's going to get chosen? It won't be you unless you have an in with the group leader. The "system" may not limit you, but perception is reality and the prevailing perception is that if you don't have it you are weak compared to someone who does. And that job you decided to focus all your merits in at the expense of all others because you love it so much? Chances are high that it's a job that's considered useless compared to the 5 or 6 that are favored.

This is what makes RPG RPG. When you click "+" on STR and DEX your WIS and INT is forever gimped and vice versa. You simply shouldn't be allowed to be the best at everything because thats how RPG goes for past 30 years. RPG is supposed to be life simulator focus on stats and number. Irl most ppl can't get everything. Someone spent their entire life getting stronger gets higher STR but lower INT WIS, someone spent their entire life studying gets higher INT WIS but lower STR. Because you only have 24 hr a day and you can't get everything, you can only pick one area and focus.

In game you can't really simulate the result of your choice since the time flow is faster, if you don't set limitation everyone can just get everything and they no longer need to make choices. So the only way that can force the player to make choices about life is through + and - on stats. Or else there are no decision to be made and everyone just cap everything.

If you want equal footing with other players, play RTS or FTG. But please don't kill my RPG experience. I want "+" and "-" on stats in this game like in other games.

B.

But like I said, I know my view is unpopular, because the general thinking of everyone is "why have less when you can have more? Give us everything, there's no reason for us to not have everything!" rather than "I want to focus on being the best summoner and blue mage I can be, so I'm going to spec my merits for those jobs. I've got a geared pld too, so I can use that if necessary, but I'd perfer to play my favored jobs."

Nah, I support your opinion and that makes it two of us

Specialization is still the antithesis of the job system. They should remove category caps.

No specialization is the antithesis of MMORPG. Job system is just a system, MMORPG is the genre of this game, the fundamental of a game. If the system contradicts the fundamental, fundamental takes the priority.

[Camiie]

If you have other suggestion about how to improve the role playing experience in FFXI, feel free to let the dev know.

Until then the merit point system or something similar is the best this game can get.

There's nothing anti-RPG about having an open system. Just because it isn't common that doesn't make it wrong.

Now you're starting to give bad examples lol.

How so? You guys want specialization within jobs? You guys want limitations? Well there ya go. Alhanelem himself said that gear is everything these days. What better place to introduce specialization in a game that's heavily driven by gear? Spells are just skills that cost MP. Why not force mages to choose certain spells over others? If limiting weapon skills is good then limiting spells should be as well. Pets define pet jobs do they not? Why not force those jobs to specialize so that they aren't all throwing the same few pets at everything?

I don't believe your "play style" can set you apart, this game doesn't allow players to develop their own play style. This isn't FTG or RTS, this is a RPG and the right way for a RPG game to develop play style is through stat limitation and skill selection.

It can and it does. Just because it isn't a game that relies heavily on manual dexterity that doesn't mean there aren't differences in how people do things.

Also, your personality doesn't set you apart either, because it doesn't affect the game play. When I'm talking about "being unique" it's from gameplay's POV.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

If the limitation of the number of merit WS is affecting the job performance that much, then the right solution is to buff the 2nd best WS choice, not removing the RPG element.

I have no problem with buffing the 2nd best WS, but what if I'm trying to role play a Mary Sue shonen anime type character who can perform any technique after seeing it done once. You're limiting the RPG element for me here.

Bow RNG with 1/5 apex is just fine cuz they can use JR, MNK with 1/5 merit is just fine because they can use VS. I've never seen a pt lead complain about VS MNK and JR RNG. The merit WS is situational.

Yeah you Victory Smite the raptor in Morimar or the pugil in Foret and see if someone doesn't complain.

This is what makes RPG RPG. When you click "+" on STR and DEX your WIS and INT is forever gimped and vice versa. You simply shouldn't be allowed to be the best at everything because thats how RPG goes for past 30 years. RPG is supposed to be life simulator focus on stats and number. Irl most ppl can't get everything. Someone spent their entire life getting stronger gets higher STR but lower INT WIS, someone spent their entire life studying gets higher INT WIS but lower STR. Because you only have 24 hr a day and you can't get everything, you can only pick one area and focus.

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

In game you can't really simulate the result of your choice since the time flow is faster, if you don't set limitation everyone can just get everything and they no longer need to make choices. So the only way that can force the player to make choices about life is through + and - on stats. Or else there are no decision to be made and everyone just cap everything.

If you want equal footing with other players, play RTS or FTG. But please don't kill my RPG experience. I want "+" and "-" on stats in this game like in other games.

So it's perfectly fine for YOU to kill MY experience, but yours must never be impacted in any way. Well aren't you the tolerant sort?

[Afania]

How so? You guys want specialization within jobs? You guys want limitations? Well there ya go. Alhanelem himself said that gear is everything these days. What better place to introduce specialization in a game that's heavily driven by gear? Spells are just skills that cost MP. Why not force mages to choose certain spells over others? If limiting weapon skills is good then limiting spells should be as well. Pets define pet jobs do they not? Why not force those jobs to specialize so that they aren't all throwing the same few pets at everything?

Because the game content is already designed and balanced based on the fact that everyone can get all spells. Obviously it's silly to ask the dev to remove the access to certain spells/JA. That'd make the content a lot harder than it is now. Further more there are too many junk spells that there isn't much choice to make anyways.

It IS possible to create a game that forces the mages to choose certain spell over others, just not in this game. But in many other RPG I've played you do have to choose. Limiting spells isn't "wrong" design, just wouldn't work in this game.

It can and it does. Just because it isn't a game that relies heavily on manual dexterity that doesn't mean there aren't differences in how people do things.



In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

Well, if you insist to play WHMinja, GS PLD or bow SAM then maybe that's different playstyle! But that's not enough, IMO. Until you can play WHMinja, GS PLD or bow SAM full time and no one in the pt give you shit storm about it, there still more room for creative freedom.

You are right, if you seriously go digging about it you CAN find a situation that allows different play style, but only in extremely niche situation and it's limited to certain jobs.

Limitation through merit applies to all jobs and it's effective all the time, it's a more powerful way to force the player to make choices.

In a game built around socially interacting with others then your personality is as much an aspect of the game play as anything else. And you were talking about being unique from a role playing perspective just a bit ago.

But what you say doesn't affect the actual gameplay. You can't change the story nor attribute by speaking in /p /l or /tell, unlike other RPG.

I have no problem with buffing the 2nd best WS, but what if I'm trying to role play a Mary Sue shonen anime type character who can perform any technique after seeing it done once. You're limiting the RPG element for me here.

If a character that's capable of doing any technique after seeing it done once, he/she should have a weakness: He/she will be suck at the technique.

So yeah, 1/5 it is

RPG element isn't "Hey, I wanna role play a super saiyen, please give me all stat 999 thank you". If you think you can be what you want to be in a RPG game, just because it's RPG, then you don't really know the meaning behind it.

Yeah you Victory Smite the raptor in Morimar or the pugil in Foret and see if someone doesn't complain.

You can VS on raptor just fine. Heck I even dia it.

An RPG can be whatever the designer wants it to be. It can shatter the classic mold entirely and still be an RPG that's just as valid an experience as anything that came before.

And the designer wants the game to have limitation, why are you fighting against it?

So it's perfectly fine for YOU to kill MY experience, but yours must never be impacted in any way. Well aren't you the tolerant sort?

This game's been like that for years though, if it's not tolerable you'd leave already. But you didn't, so you can tolerate it

[Malithar]

Because the game content is already designed and balanced based on the fact that everyone can get all spells. Obviously it's silly to ask the dev to remove the access to certain spells/JA. That'd make the content a lot harder than it is now. Further more there are too many junk spells that there isn't much choice to make anyways.

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

[Afania]

I know that was in response to spells, but that carries over to the WSs as well. It doesn't break anything or make anything easier by allowing people to 5/5 more WSs, since Joe-Smoe #1 has 5/5 WS A, B, C, Joe-Smoe #2 has 5/5 WS D, E, F, and Joe-Smoe #3 has WS X, Y, and Z. The damage increase is already available, thus the content is already balanced and designed around 5/5 WS damage proportions.

The only legitimate argument I can see to it, beyond "they want specializations!" is a job like War that gets access to many of them being capable of using a 5/5 WS for any given weapon they're using. But really, the weapons themselves aren't available to make this much of a problem, nevermind that it's already currently possible since a War could very well decide that they want 5/5 Upheaval, Realmrazer, and Stardiver in order to cover those very possibilities.

Going off of your quote, and how there's plenty of junk spells that there isn't much choice in what we use...it's the very same for WSs. For a fair number of jobs, their best WSs are Empy or Merited. What about the jobs that it's merit or bust? Without them, you're left using the "junk" WSs you have access to, thus making the content artificially more difficult by limiting the abilities of the player. Most just choose not to play that job, rather than be "gimp." Is that really how an MMORPG should run, in order to keep "specializations" in place? I'd expect an MMO that's largest draw was a variable class system of 22 jobs to be fully capable of allowing players to play each and every one of those jobs to their fullest ability, at any given time, as long as the job has been lvled, merited, geared, and learned.

I do agree that the cap between merit WS and 2nd best WS for some jobs needs to be fixed, but they should have fix that first. Those who argued that "my job isn't playable without merit WS" should look at bow RNG. I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

[Malithar]

I also think the gap between 1/5 and 5/5 should be smaller.

I wouldn't argue if 1/5 and 5/5 were brought even closer together, but personally, I'd question the point of 5/5 if it was anything less than 10% difference. I'd prolly just go 1/5 wild and get everything, and choose a few to 2-3/5.

Another way to balance the content is to give additional special effect for 5/5, something like virus duration or eva down duration. That wouldn't affect the balance that much but it's still "specialization concept"

As above, I'd question the point of going 5/5 then. If they did solve it with additional effects, it would need to be something that was balanced, but enticing.

You argued that MMORPG shouldn't allow specialization cuz of game balance issue, but games with talent tree do that all the time, why can't FFXI? In a game with talent tree you can't play a class to it's "fullest ability" if you choose certain specialization, unless you reroll or re-allocate the points.

With job system or not, it's basically the same concept.

There's a major problem with this view point though. I can understand what you're coming from all too well. But in those games, your character is locked to those classes. You can diversify from within the class, but it's all contained within the bubble of that class. And in most of the games, changing to another spec within that class is not that big of a deal, definitely no where near what it'd take to, say, redo entire base stat, weapon/magic skills, and WS merits.

In those other games, the choices you make within your class effect only that class. The choices are just that, options to improve your class in a variety of ways. Talent trees, specs, what have you, they all go towards improving the job you're capable of doing as that class.

FFXI though, you're not just playing that one class that you picked at character creation. You're free to change as you see fit, to anything you've lvled. Gear it up, merit it, learn the job, and bam, you're ready to go. No need to create a new character to choose talents and such to improve your job, you've simply changed your characters job. But then you look at the merit system, and it throws a wrench in all of this. The choices you've made for your other jobs have effected this job in a negative way. What's the honest solution to that? I can't wrap my head around "it's to specialize!"

I don't really care, as my enjoyment in this game comes from about 4 jobs. But I know plenty who would prefer to be able to play their side jobs to the fullest of their ability, in a sense, making them no longer side jobs, but best geared/merited jobs. Instead, they're relegated to the closet since they're not able to. There's no real comparison I can make to other games, simply because their answer to such a thing is "reroll!"