[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[Malithar]

You aren't limited. If you could prove that certain content was unbeatable when playing with <insert job here> in the group if their merits weren't optimized for that job, then I would agree with you completely. But, you can't do that, because it simply isn't true.

Your definition of limited seems to be vastly different than what nearly anyone else would consider limited.

Uncapping merits is popular because who doesn't want more stuff? Who cares about good game design, as long as I get MOAR STUFF!

No. Good game design would be each and every Job Merit being roughly equal in utility. That's obviously not the case, hence most jobs have a fairly straight forward "this is what you merit." Some have some uniqueness and options to them, and the one's that do, I'd back as being good design.

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

So by "remembering the little snow flakes and not inviting them" you are in some ways contributing to the death of the game.

Not specifically you, but typically the snow flake players I've met are just, for lack of a better phrase, straight up bad. They're the Whms that can't keep a haste rotation, that are oblivious to the uses of Boost-spells and Dia, the DDs who don't WS swap, the melee mages that get one shot, etc. Pick your poison. But once your taint ruins runs, that's that, ya know? Gone or not, I don't think many really care.

I've made up my mind on this subject, i stated well in advance I understand most people don't see this the way I do, but the replies to my comments sure seem hell bent on proving me wrong and/or making me look bad. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. I shared my opinion. You've shared yours. It's obvious whose is more popular, so why are you attacking me? Are you afraid they might listen to me and not you? If I'm really 1 of 2 people in the entire community with my line of thought, then you don't have anything to worry about...

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

[Xantavia]

However, that's on a per job basis. When you branch out into stats, weapon skills, magic skills, HP/MP, even +/- enmity, the limiting nature of the caps hinder jobs. Does it cripple as you keep saying? No, but it hinders, and who doesn't want to max out their character the best way that they can? How are you able to look past that as "customization" when it applies to all jobs, rather than just your current job, like Job Merits do.

You seem to be looking at the merit system differently than others of us. To me, merits are that little bit of extra for the jobs I truly enjoy. I max out sword merits and its "Now I'm a little bit better when using a sword". If I'm interpreting you right, if you don't put any merits in sword, you see it as your sword skill not being capped. The only thing I could see as a hinderence to another job is the emnity+/-, just because some jobs want the hate and others don't.

This is reminding me of when I played D&D. I pick a rough idea of what I wanted with my character, and would maybe end up with 2 or 3 classes. Other people would spend hours trying to min/max everything they did trying to take 1 or 2 levels from 10 different jobs, then complain to the DM that the experience penalty for multiclassing was unfair.

I understand that there might be tradeoffs to being strong in one area but having to become weaker in another and I'm O.K. with that. But not everybody thinks that way.

[Afania]

Fair enough. I'd imagine most replies came at the obvious lack of logic, and the overzealous feels of "dat customization!"

There's also the overzealous feel of "I'm being hindered" with merit point system, but in reality you are not.

NONE of the stat merit are required to play the job and beat the content. NONE of the stat merit are limiting your ability to play the job. A WAR without HP 15/15 and DEX 15/15 can still berserk/warcry/ukko like every other WAR. NONE of the game content is based on everyone with perfect merit for their job.

I also don't understand the logic behind "If you like merit point system and decision making, you don't have logic. If you don't like merit point system you have logic." If there's a flaw in merit point system, such as certain choices are more popular than another, the right fix is to balance it, not remove it.

[Camiie]

Since you still have both freedom. full functionality, I'll take the uniqueness.

1) Your jobs are fully functional. Nothing is preventing you from using them,t hey are not "crippled" because you didn't optimize your merits for them. You can still beat content on them. Not Minmaxed != Not fully functional

2) Because you are still able to use any job at will, you are able to change your merits, and you are not crippled by them, you still have full freedom to use any job.

You're shooting your own argument in the foot by downplaying the effectiveness of the merit weapon skills. You're painting them as worthless yet latching onto them as though they have considerable value. Which is it? If they're completely unnecessary, then there's no reason to limit them as having them all fully merited does not make one overpowered, nor does having a useless ability make one meaningfully unique.

//Cues Camiie stating the moon is made of green cheese and getting 5-10 likes for it

That's a highly disrespectful and demeaning comment. You're just outright insulting me and anyone who disagrees with you at this point.

[Ravenmore]

LOL really now. Ok so I show up as a drg to a delve boss run and say I don't have angon because I want to be as special snow flake how fast do you think the group would kick me. If you want to do group content you have to submit to what the group needs and wants. While yes it is a player issue it is also SE's issue to fix it, and changing the game is a whole lot easier then trying to change people.There is no harm AT ALL in uncapping the system. As so many people have pointed out there has always only been one right way to spend job merits if you wanted to do content on that job.

As the player base gets smaller people will remember the little snow flakes and not invite them, so those people too will relent and give up their crap merits to be useful. Also they have been upping the caps on the ones that used to really limit what jobs you can max out before the merited weapon skills were added. Combat, HP/MP, magic skills, attributes even the other cat have gotten increases that now limit you very little.

[Alhanelem]

limit your character to 1 job,

Other games don't lock extra characters behind a paywall though, therefore you can play every class in those games too, just not on the same identity. FFXI is unusual in restricting you from more than one character unless you pay more. Customization systems are no more the antithesis for XI than they are for any other game.

The problem as I see it is two schools of thought, basically (but not exactly) a cup half full and cup half empty issue. There are those who view talent trees and merits and other similar systems as little more than non-level progression ( cup half empty approach) where the lack of them is a penalty. Then there are those who view these systems as bonuses or customization options when possessed rather than a punishment for not having (Cup half full). Neither is inherently wrong, and I'd like to stress that I'm really not trying to call anyone wrong in sharing my view on the matter. Personally, to me the best way to address the complaints and retain the customization of the system would be to drastically reduce the difficulty of changing your merits. If you could just respec them for a fee (instead of having to get whole new merits) in your mog house or something, you'd have the customization without the limitations being as much of a hinderance. In most other games with similar systems, it is not very difficult to undo/redo your decisions.

(Perhaps if the tradeoff was built into each effect/ability- that is, every merit has a benefit and a downside, that people would look at them more as customization and not as character progression)

So to be perfectly clear, even though I view the merit system as a customization system more than a progression device, there are a lot of ways the system could execute that goal a lot better than it does now. In posting that I don't want them to uncap merits, that doesn't mean that I feel that the merit system is perfect and without flaw (It very much isn't).

[Alhanelem]

That's a highly disrespectful and demeaning comment. You're just outright insulting me and anyone who disagrees with you at this point.

It was a joke at the time, not an insult. Also, it's the only such thing Ive made in this entire thread. I have not been insulting you or anyone else who disagrees with me, whereas I've been called multiple names including "moron" for my opinion. Have I called you any names? No. Have I called anyone else any names? No. Others have been FAR, FAR more disrespectful and demeaning to me.

There's no justice around here, I'm the one being attacked for my opinion. I've made it very clear that I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything, that inspite of my view I still find significant flaws in the merit system, and that while I hold this viewpoint, I do understand and respect the view held by others. So why you all seem so hellbent on attacking me, calling names, and making me look bad, I really don't know.

As I said before, if I've made up my mind and I've acknolwedged the other viewpoint and I'm in a minority, why try so hard to break me down? If SE decided they wanted to make changes to merits based on this thread, it's pretty obvious what they'd do so it's not like you have anything to worry about.

You're shooting your own argument in the foot by downplaying the effectiveness of the merit weapon skills.

Actually, I'm strengthening my argument. If their impact is minor, they are totally fine to remain as they are. Customization doesn't have to be extraordinarily useful. The benefits are minor but so are the pitfalls.

[detlef]

Actually, I'm strengthening my argument. If their impact is minor, they are totally fine to remain as they are. Customization doesn't have to be extraordinarily useful. The benefits are minor but so are the pitfalls.

It doesn't strengthen your argument because your assertion that their impact is minor is incorrect. We can't go by your definition of minor as "something that is not necessary to clear content" because that definition could then be applied to everything in the game.

You don't like VW drop rates? Well you're already clearing VW without the gear so it must be fine. You don't need it to clear content so why change it?

Hey weren't you complaining about how you didn't have enough merits to even merit BRD and GEO magic skills all the way? Well just this once, we'll up the category limits so you can finally maximize your potential. But only because meriting is all there is to do this update. Oh but anyway, you don't need that, I'm sure you can still clear content without that.

What's that? You don't like it that Seraphicaller and Divinator are only available from alliance content? Well tell you what, we WILL change that for you. Just know that we didn't have to, since they're not necessary to clear content. Don't do the BCs for this, you should be happy with your Eminent Animator. You can still clear whatever content is relevant to you.

Let's just leave everything the way it is. You're already doing great and you're a fine poster!

[Camiie]

It was a joke at the time, not an insult. Also, it's the only such thing Ive made in this entire thread. I have not been insulting you or anyone else who disagrees with me, whereas I've been called multiple names including "moron" for my opinion. Have I called you any names? No. Have I called anyone else any names? No. Others have been FAR, FAR more disrespectful and demeaning to me.

You aimed your "joke at the time" (so what is it now) squarely at me and I didn't call you anything. You just categorized everything I said as nonsense, and it isn't no matter how you feel about it.

There's no justice around here, I'm the one being attacked for my opinion. I've made it very clear that I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything, that inspite of my view I still find significant flaws in the merit system, and that while I hold this viewpoint, I do understand and respect the view held by others. So why you all seem so hellbent on attacking me, calling names, and making me look bad, I really don't know. As I said before, if I've made up my mind and I've acknolwedged the other viewpoint and I'm in a minority, why try so hard to break me down? If SE decided they wanted to make changes to merits based on this thread, it's pretty obvious what they'd do so it's not like you have anything to worry about.

Again I haven't called you anything, but please don't let that fact kill the mood at your pity party.

Actually, I'm strengthening my argument. If their impact is minor, they are totally fine to remain as they are. Customization doesn't have to be extraordinarily useful. The benefits are minor but so are the pitfalls.

If customization doesn't have to be useful then let's make all customization come from purely cosmetic sources and leave weapon skills, stats, and abilities out of it. Looks like we've finally found common ground. I knew it'd happen eventually.

[Alhanelem]

It doesn't strengthen your argument because your assertion that their impact is minor is incorrect. We can't go by your definition of minor as "something that is not necessary to clear content"

Except you can go by that definition, because it's true. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it false.

because that definition could then be applied to everything in the game

You're right, it can. I fail to see the problem here. I must say, I have to commend you on your great job masking hostility with sarcasm though.