[dev1210] Why Not Merit Weaponskills ??

[predatory]

I figured it out. The reason for not simply unlocking all the merits, or all the weaponskills is purely a business decision. If they unlock all the weaponskills and people level and merit the appropriate weaponskills, what is to keep them logging in?

Let's look at this realistically. There is very little real endgame content compared to any time in the past. There is skirmish, (which is dying quickly)m there are WKRs, (which other than a random shout here and there, are pretty much dead), there's delve, and the high tier battlefields, (which keep you busy until you get the one piece you're after, but feel more like a grind than anything else), and that's about it.

What's to keep people playing once they've leveled and fully merited their chars out? The whole reason, (IMO), is for you to level a job lower merits in one place then go out and merit again so you can keep busy and keep logging in until next months update comes. If everyone were to suddenly be able to merit everything people would be grinding in aby for a month or so, then they'd go do there favorite endgame on a couple of different jobs, figure they'd beaten the game and you'd never see them again. I know people are going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I've seen alot of people come and go over the years, and the main reason I've seen people leave is they get bored, and with the little real endgame content we have, if people were fully merited what's to keep them from becoming bored in a great big hurry. Right now you have to go re-merit to play your job 100% so you keep busy on and off, what's to happen when you don't even have that to do anymore?

[FrankReynolds]

You overstate the impact of the system immensely.

Well that's a catch 22. If it doesn't make a significant difference, then it doesn't make you significantly unique. So find some other way to be unique. This one is unimportant.

[Byrth]

Analhelm is making the classic, unsupported "it's good design and a good idea because that's the way it is" argument and mixing it with a bunch of logical fallacies. Par for the course!

[Alhanelem]

Between optimization or not optimizing. What's the logical choice?

Your choice is between optimizing one job and optimizing another. But if you really want to not optimize anything, that's an option too, I suppose.

Also, some of us are not as crazy hardcore as you are and are not super concerned with putting out the absolute greatest numbers and one-upping the rest of the party, as long as they're able to win the content. Some play play a bit more relaxed (But that also doesn't mean they aren't capable). However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

---

I'm still not convinced that there is such a huge gap between the merit WS and the next best possible option (Which, even if there is, the whole system is going to be undergoing revisions soon, so any argument we're having about it could be moot- Ignoring people's cynicism about how SE will change the older WS). I'm also not convinced that the difference between a 1/5 and 5/5 WS is significant enough to majorly alter your DPS over a fight or affect your ability to play content. Odds are, if you have the WS at all, nobody's going to be paying attention to exactly how much damage you do with it- so unless you're playing with the most elite of elitists, nobody's going to notice you haven't fully upgraded it.

As I've said before, I wouldn't mind if they increased the WS limit as I think it's a bit too restrictive atm (and I'm sure everyone would love that). I only don't feel that it should be uncapped entirely.

In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

Also, every other game pretty much lets you play every class. FFXI just makes it much more convenient to do so by allowing you to do it with a single identity. Should those games have all their customization options removed, since being able to play all classes apparently means you have to be allowed to be the best at everything?

I would honestly be more bothered if the decisions you have to make couldn't be undone. But they can be. And while its a bit of a hassle, it is not in any way difficult to remove your merits from something and then upgrade something else- something I've done on a few occasions after regretting my choices.

Personally, I like making choices about my character. But it doesn't seem like anyone else does. I don't feel my ability to be the best PUP should be limited to gear obtainment (especially since everyone who wants to play a job will probably get the best or near the best gear for it eventually). If that's my favorite job, I should be able to customize my character to favor that job. I also play other jobs when necesary, and I can still play those jobs. I'm just better at this job because it's my favorite. (In fact, in most content I end up using something else. I use my SCH, DNC, SMN, DRK and GEO all the time even though my stat merits are for STR and my Others merits favor melee combat. Have I been prevented from using those jobs by my merit choices? Absolutely not. The merit system has successfully enhanced my favorite job, whilst not preventing me from using others when necessary.)

[Malithar]

However, I recognize the plight of such elitists who are unable to understand why everyone else around them doesn't strive for absolute perfection; I honestly pity such people. >.>

That's pretty much borderline insulting, for someone who deleted their response to someone for calling you a moron. There's a rather large difference between "absolute perfection" and "wanting to play each and every job to the same ability." I don't need your pity, and I'd imagine most other's that strive to at least hit what they feel is a good level of play for a quality player don't need it either.

If you're missing an HQ piece or two or 4 and missing -4 stats, I don't care, and I don't care that I'm missing those. Are you using a WS that's doing less than 70% of what another WS you could unlock as 1/5 could do as a Drk? /kicked Are you a DD that's more apt at pushing air around with your weapon than hitting a mob? /kicked

There's a certain degree of gear/skill that most put into and bring with a given job that they play. Ever see a Whm that can keep everyone topped off just fine, knows how to manage AF3+2 legs correctly and very rarely over cures? How about when they keep Dia II up full time, boost spells up full time, and properly manage a Haste cycle? -Na's before people even ask? That's a good player. Now that's Whm, their degree of skill comes more from management of resources, IE, MP, spells, gear.

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

I'm viewing Afania's argument better than your's simply because at least his has a point, as silly as it is. Your's is simply "they're choices, bonuses, and you're capable of doing anything and everything without them," which isn't incorrect per-se, but if that's the honest case, why divide the playerbase on their purpose and include them anyways?

Since not everybody has leveled/unlocked every job, that's not exactly true.

That's seriously your retort to an MMO with a job selection system as varied as XI's? Lemme rephrase then. In a game where your job selection at any given time is not limited, I wholeheartedly disagree, unless you're too lazy to level more useful/fun jobs, cause you're obviously in tune with the game's variable job system. Did I hit the mark that time?

[Xantavia]

How does a DD stand out? They don't die instantly (-DT sets, content willing) and they blow mobs up with good damage. Merits directly impact this, in that unless you only play a single DD (little over 1/2th of the jobs are considered DDs) you're more than likely missing merits that would boost your selected WSs mod, combat merits, and WS merits. How's that fair, compared across the character, as "being their choice"? So just because I prefer, say, to play Sam, then if I'm requested to come to something as Thf, I should be penalized by my merit choices? You say you only view merits as a bonus, however, when you look at VD content, the accuracy and damage provided by meriting out the off jobs you may have to bring could very well be the difference between +/- 10% accuracy and varying degrees of WS damage and att.

What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.

[Demonjustin]

What this should be telling people is that you prefer to play SAM. Let the person who maximized their merits to benefit THF come thf. By having to make a choice about which job gets the biggest boost, it lets your friends know which job you really want to play with.

That doesn't change much most of the time. I prefer RDM in any situation but just because my RDM is fully merited and my character is built around it doesn't change the fact people want WHM instead sometimes and unless I'm willing to go WHM I just won't be taken at all. The same can be said for anyone who has a prefered job, sure, you might prefer SAM, but if we don't need a SAM and you're not up to par on THF compared to what I'm wanting then I just won't take you at all and the very fact you merited SAM rather than THF becomes nothing more than a hinderance.

[Alhanelem]

By the way, a supported argument would offer evidence to support it. In this case, it would need to offer evidence that keeping a limited merit system notably improves the average player's gaming experience.

There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

A more reasonable thing to measure is if there is a meaningful amount of variation in merit point combinations in use. The problem here is the only data we are given by SE lumps everything together. You can only see the total amount of people with one or more levels of each merit. You can't see all the individual combinations in use. Attribute category for example isnt a great measurement because there are more melee-based (STR) jobs than ranged jobs (DEX, INT) or support/specialist jobs (MND/AGI/CHR). So if everyone set their attribtue merits for the one and only job they play most, I would expect to see more STR merits than other merits. But this doesn't mean everybody plays STR based jobs nor does it mean nobody uses other combinations. (e.g. if your true love is mages and you don't use melee DDs or tanks much, you're not going to merit STR)

[Byrth]

There is unfortunately no way to measure this. By the same token though, you need to offer actual evidence that the merit limits notably deteriorate the average player's gaming experience. Which, such evidence would be just as hard to come by for you. Testimonials of a handful of people on a forum (for either side, mine or yours) do not have statistical significance.

Why do I need data to support my arguments, which were basically:
1) Uncapping the merit system gives us more reasons to log in
2) Uncapping the merit system would get people to do things that give xp (like Voidwatch)
3) Uncapping the merit system is at cross purposes with the rest of FFXI's design

All three of my points are just logical outgrowths of looking at the game, don't make any unwarranted assumptions about the average player's experience (having more to do = good), and don't really require a survey of the playerbase to support them. Of course, if we were going to survey the playerbase, it's fairly obvious that it would be supported. Is this the most "liked" post on the NA forums? I'm not sure, but it has got to be up there. Meanwhile, posts to the contrary garner something like 0-1 "like." Basically, if this was a idea-popularity contest then uncapping the merit system wins.