Revocation and replacement of item level system

[Rubeus]

@Predatory: How was my post in any way directed solely at you? I could say the same about scanners; I like the idea of continually raising merit categories and job points, but let's face it: it took SE a little over a year after Adoulin came out to implement job points, and a year and 3 months to raise the merit caps. Meanwhile, Kumhau and his associated Delve version has been out since March, an exact year since Seekers. So we suffered with Yumcax and Hurkan and as I recall most of Adoulin in general for a YEAR before they BEGAN to "address the problem." And you're trusting them to never ever raise the ilevel ever again and continue a non-gear-driven progression paradigm? When it took them til December -- 9 months after the launch -- to introduce Eminent gear for people who weren't interested in doing Delve and following the update paths for Skirmish (which, in fairness, were replaced every update with new skirmishes, which is a well-known fact.)

I could find out for you when they revamped relics and mythics, if you'd like.

@DemonJustin: I think in terms of the Buremte Gloves example you gave, you're missing a crucial element of the "remove the stat-vomit" argument. I'll use the thief's Assassin +2 set as an example: the gloves have CHR +7, acc +9, eva +9, and enmity +5 on them. There's no reason why if you removed the stat vomit, those stats shouldn't still exist on the Plunderer's set, or even be further enhanced -- so armor like the Buremte Gloves would still find usage even without the "fluff" of stat vomit. I'm not asking for all the ilvl gear not to provide +stats, I'm asking for them to provide the +stats they'd have if they didn't have enough cover-up on them to make a Maybelline commercial. I've seen you on the forums a lot and you've always been a crusader for the RDM cause, so you of all people should appreciate the need for the removal of ilvls. Chatoyant staff for example would be worth using again if your natural magic accuracy and damage met the demands of current content, and you'd get the added benefit of affinity.

As far as your faith in the development team goes in "learning from their mistakes," I do agree with you that they do seem to have gotten better about it. But SE's mantra is and has been "your stuff isn't always going to be the best!" -- and having ilvl119 until seekers wraps up (which will hopefully include empyrean equipment additions) isn't the same as saying "the system can't go beyond these values to a higher ilvl." At this point they've laid the brickwork for ilvl3,000,000 if they so choose to, so what's to stop them? Our whining? Hasn't worked so far; I refer you to pretty much every summoner asking for cait sith for 3 years and your very own RDM threads.

In general:
Also, there's been no definitive testing on BLU as far as wearing learning/skill gear before death vs wearing it as the ability is used, and I don't even know how you'd test that, but I'm not going to derail the conversation into that. But your BST analogy is flawed -- my ilvl119 bst still can't even solo an yggrette NM, much less anything of value. Allakazham has a wonderful thread about the stat scaling for iLvls and thorough testing has been done; the average pet only receives something like 47 HP per ilvl, and about ~3 per stat. That's pitiful when compared against a player, even if you're wearing all the pet gear and -DT in the world. See also "some food works on pets, but you'll need items not readily available for acc/atk bonuses that don't really compete with content."

[Louispv]

Also, there's been no definitive testing on BLU as far as wearing learning/skill gear before death vs wearing it as the ability is used, and I don't even know how you'd test that, but I'm not going to derail the conversation into that.

Yes there has. Nothing affects learning blue magic except the "Increases chance to learn Blue Magic" on AF hands. The only way Blue Magic Skill+ helps you learn a spell is if your blue magic skill is lower than the level required to learn the spell. (I.E. It's a level 75 spell and you have the skill level of a level 62 BLU) This hasn't been a problem since 99, since every spell has been a level 99 spell or below. Unless you still haven't capped your blue magic skill for some reason.

You should be complaining that Blue magic doesn't scale properly with Ilevel in exactly the same way pets do, since they "fixed" it by just sticking a multiplier on it based on main hand item level, the same way they did for BST pets. A multiplier that is far too small and underpowered because other jobs get the full benefits of gear, abilities, and buffs that blue magic doesn't get, which have only gotten stronger as item level goes up. Exactly like pets, and anything else that isn't strictly player ATT vs enemy DEF.

[Olor]

What real content is it such a drag in? By your own posts, Bst isn't useful in any BCs, Delve, Skirmish, etc. So what real content are you doing that A: your pet needs acc and haste, B: you're DDing yourself, and C: the loss of acc in your offhand (which isn't even much of a loss at all, as you state not having access to a 119, let alone 2) is causing you serious accuracy issues?

As for if I offhand 115s when trying to DD, no. If DDing is your goal, then why are you so hung up on what the axe provides the pet? If you're doing content where it's best for the Bst to stand outside and send the pet in, have at it with whatever axe is best for the situation. Exact same applies to if you are DDing, use what's best for that.

So your response is "Don't play BST" very helpful. I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been advocating for fixes so BST CAN BE USED IN ILEVEL CONTENT. Saying "who cares if this is broken you wouldn't be a DD anyway" just proves my point. It's stuff like the only +Pet ACC weapon being level 115 that MAKES BST NOT USEFUL. This is part of the problem. Pets should have stats NATURALLY that are good enough to compete in modern content. I shouldn't even need Hunahpu. That Hunahpu is also 115 and locked there is just an additional slap in the face.

Way to miss the point.

Also I don't have a 119 yet, but I will at some point, (working on JSE weapon) and even the loss of 2 item levels is a HUGE and NOTICEABLE difference. I also shouldn't have to ignore my pet DD output in order to have decent DD output from me. I need both to be an acceptable DD - hence why BST is not invited to events - because we are expected to gimp one half of our damage or the other to play.

[Olor]

Funny enough, after I posted about not wanting to PUG delve, a friend of a friend was looking for a bard for Tojil so I decided to give it a shot and got the win.

Thanks for the "encouragement" (aka ridicule) folks.

[Demonjustin]

@DemonJustin: I think in terms of the Buremte Gloves example you gave, you're missing a crucial element of the "remove the stat-vomit" argument. I'll use the thief's Assassin +2 set as an example: the gloves have CHR +7, acc +9, eva +9, and enmity +5 on them. There's no reason why if you removed the stat vomit, those stats shouldn't still exist on the Plunderer's set, or even be further enhanced -- so armor like the Buremte Gloves would still find usage even without the "fluff" of stat vomit. I'm not asking for all the ilvl gear not to provide +stats, I'm asking for them to provide the +stats they'd have if they didn't have enough cover-up on them to make a Maybelline commercial. I've seen you on the forums a lot and you've always been a crusader for the RDM cause, so you of all people should appreciate the need for the removal of ilvls. Chatoyant staff for example would be worth using again if your natural magic accuracy and damage met the demands of current content, and you'd get the added benefit of affinity.

There's a side to that you're not seeing. Buremte and Umuthi give us +stats for a Light DD piece, stats we don't get from normal mage pieces. This follows with items like Lithelimb and Karmesin Vest. If you take the stats off these then RDM's stats will likely go down. I understand what you're saying and the easiest way to look at it is that with every item level if you compare a piece to other pieces that have the same jobs they almost always have the same stats, an example would be...



from these pieces we can assume that by default at 119 a RDM likely gains 54 HP 59 MP 21 STR/DEX/VIT/AGI, 29 MND/INT/CHR, 41 EVA, 80 MEVA, and 6MDB.

This changes however when you look at this body...

for RDM these stats are outside of the norm. That said, for other job on this body the stats really aren't, they're something you might see on a THF's gear. So you couldn't change this body to give -MND/INT with +STR/DEX without THFs ending up with a different outcome on what should be gained or lost most likely. That means one job is probably going to get the short end of the stick here, and since it's a melee piece, it's probably RDM. Comparing it to other gear only works so long as the pieces you're comparing them to are all for the same jobs, pieces like these would likely end up worse for some jobs like I was saying. Though admittedly I think it's somewhat a confusing comparison to make in the end.

As far as your faith in the development team goes in "learning from their mistakes," I do agree with you that they do seem to have gotten better about it. But SE's mantra is and has been "your stuff isn't always going to be the best!" -- and having ilvl119 until seekers wraps up (which will hopefully include empyrean equipment additions) isn't the same as saying "the system can't go beyond these values to a higher ilvl." At this point they've laid the brickwork for ilvl3,000,000 if they so choose to, so what's to stop them? Our whining? Hasn't worked so far; I refer you to pretty much every summoner asking for cait sith for 3 years and your very own RDM threads.

While you are correct, there's a key difference. The difference being that we've made an impact on this front and the fact this is a much larger scale. The scaling was going much quicker before and we complained a ton, we also complained about RME weapons going out of date, and we did actually influence change on both aspects. RMEs were brought back and the progression speed when it comes to item levels was slowed down if not halted. The scale is another important one and in my opinion the key one. Changes to RDM and SMN will only change 2 jobs, 2 jobs which they likely think are unpopular due to the few people who play them these days(even if it's due to the job's being weak, caused by their lack of updates, which is a cycle). A change to item levels is something that impacts the entire game as a whole, not a single job but every single job and as such they can't make that change unless the players agree to some extent. With SMN or RDM if they don't do anything then sure people will be upset but there are other jobs to play and chances are people will play them. If they change item levels it's an entirely different story.

[Rubeus]

If I were willing to agree that the top 3 body pieces favor MND/INT/CHR and the bottom piece favors STR/DEX/VIT, you're ignoring that your RDM would already be ~+21 to all stats, and so would the thief. Left without the stat fluff, the top 3 pieces would then have INT+11, MND+11, CHR +7. Assuming your HP/MP values also would rise with these changes, that leaves the bottom piece with HP+5 and no MP bonus, being the bottom of the bunch. But that's just the body piece; what about your head/hands/legs/feet? If you take the combined stats of all 5 pieces as a norm and combine them and then apply that to what the job should have, along with the relevant amount of MDB and EVA/MACC/MEVA, you're left with just the extra MACC and MAB. The atrophy tabard would therefore have +10 MAB/MACC, 17 enfeebling skill, 3 haste, and 2 refresh. Oh, and obviously its defense. That's still a great body piece. That it has +14 MP is just icing; but that said, the piece would only read "+14 MP, +11 int, +11 mnd, +7 chr, the 10 MACC/MAB, the enfeebling, haste, and refresh." That's still an easier read than the whole thing, and if your job naturally had the combined stats of the 5 armor pieces and the weapon fluff (including what skills should've brought our accuracy and parrying and so on up to at 119)... what I'm saying is, if you took the unnecessary slag off of the weapon slot, can you really tell me it'd beat out a Magian elemental staff?

Put more simply: I don't think THF would get the short stick on the bottom piece if all the slag was removed. Keep in mind that with said THF having, naturally, the "baseline" combination of 5 armor slots at 119, for 6 haste and maybe +3-7 points here or there? I'd rather keep my Sigyn's Cuirie. Does that make more sense? If you think the extra defense makes that much of a difference, go do a salvage on SMN naked vs as SMN in full wayfarer gear. I typically go from maybe ~40 damage to maybe ~16 damage per hit after unlocking all the Pathos. I couldn't care less about the paltry stats if I had the stats of a 119; I'm more concerned with my DPS. As anyone would be in a DD position. 11 str adds, what, 4 attack? 11 dex adds maybe a single % to critical hit rate, of which all the THF reforged deals with anyway?

Take the baseline of 5 slots + weapon at 119 and add them up, and then add that to your base stats and remove them from the gear. Suddenly, all the adoulin gear looks a lot less appetizing.

edit: not to mention GEO, BRD, BST, PUP, DRG, SMN, and certainly a number of other jobs would have the freedom to then use the gear they wanted to use, not ilvl gear for pet stats (which fail terribly. Ask anyone.) and don't take into consideration more +Summoning/geomancy/singing/whatever skill. That's the problem. It isn't just that ilvl is a ghetto way to raise our levels. It's that the systems they've put in place to deal with it are absolute garbage. Nobody's particularly happy with it, and being encumbered shouldn't mean game over.

You're right in that RDM has spells coming up, and the relic/mythic people eventually got their update (with the promise that those weapons won't always be on top, from Matsui himself), and that SMN eventually got cait sith. You're right that it'll affect every job in every way. But so what? You're right that it'll probably take awhile to dig into their spaghetti code to fix the level display function to go beyond 99 and we'd suffer dead updates as a result. But so what? We're already losing people and the people who genuinely like specific jobs are already unhappy. What has the game got to lose by publicly apologizing and fixing it? That's like the PS2 support argument. I bet you if SE actually did the math and decided to kill ps2 support, yes the Japanese audience would suffer for it, but how much money would they stand to gain by updating the graphics and algorithms and register space in ARM code to meet PC standards instead? They'd lose X number of PS2 Japanese customers but in turn gain X number of international PC accounts. It's a no-brainer.

[Olor]

Yeah, I'd be happy to trade the stat vomit for stats that matter, especially for the niche jobs like SMN, BST, PUP, BLU etc that really function best with non-generic gear. The generic gear coming out of the ilevel system is part of the reason why MNK etc is king - they benefit the most from pure stat increases... whereas jobs like BLU that have spells tied to a unique skill that doesn't get any buffs from the generic gear get totally screwed.

Because our gear is supposed to be our levels though they seem to feel like they have to put all the base stats on everything - which (first of all) makes everything look and feel very boring and samey - and second of all, crowds out room for stats that matter (SMN skill, BLU skill, Song cast time -, double attack, triple attack, +dual wield, +fast cast, pet stats etc)

I mean you get like one stat that matters on the high end peices, but most of the 117 gear has zero on it... and the other gear is all stuck at 110 or 115 ... before you had real choices now it feels like you either wear highest ilevel or you get horribly punished. The result is a bunch of gear that feels very boring and a lack of real choice. I mean its just like all the gear is the same just with more or less stat vomit on it. That's how it feels.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Items levels are not an absolute benchmark for indicating equipment strength. There is a lot of equipment that has extremely special properties, and this creates situations where even equipment with lower item levels may be useful depending on the situation and your job. FFXI is a game where you are able to swap out equipment on the spot to better suit the conditions you are faced with and we feel that having equipment such as this is fitting. Item levels serve to express the core stats of weapons and armor and the values also tie-in to pets, adventuring fellows, and alter egos. As such, we do not have any plans to change or remove the item level system at this time.

[Jerbob]

Thanks for the reply Camate.

The difficulty that I have with the item level system is a direct contradiction to what you have passed on to us. Item levels are an absolute benchmark when indicating equipment strength in very important aspects such as defensive capability and bonus attribute values. You have yourself admitted that there are many items with extremely special properties that do not possess the highest level item level. As such, using these special items puts players at a disadvantage in aspects where item level is important. They prevent players being at their maximum possible level. This is unquestionably a defect in the item level system.

Item levels tie into pets, true. Item levels do not tie into pets in ways that function well in all situations. Equipment restrictions in Salvage are a serious problem for summoners and puppetmasters. Finding effective axes that work for master and pet is a problem for beastmasters. Summoning magic skill does not scale. The list goes on. This is not an effective solution.

Almost all players love the fact that we can swap gear. It's an integral part of this game that is a foundation upon which everything else is constructed. Item levels damage that key functionality by restricting what equipment we can use in ways that have no bearing on the actual capabilities of the equipment itself. Item levels do not just express how powerful an item is - they express how powerful we are as players. As long as this aspect of our characters is not innate to the character itself, there will be problems.

Reconsidering this standpoint is really important. Please consider all the factors very carefully before making a judgement to retain this moronic system.

[Genoxd]

Item levels tie into pets, true. Item levels do not tie into pets in ways that function well in all situations. Equipment restrictions in Salvage are a serious problem for summoners and puppetmasters.

I can solo every salvage zone on SMN.

On the first floor (other than bhaf) I can kill any mob in 2 BPs w/o ammo. With ammo I can 1 shot nearly every mob. NMs die in 1-2BPs.

I'm confused, what's the issue with pets in salvage?