Relic Weapon - Aegis Item Level 119, when?

[Raka]

Hello, I'm back again with another rant and pleading that something long past due gets some attention again!

Anyways, let's look at the whole item level system....great idea for the most part. However, when you implemented item level to the REMs, you left out some stuff, Aegis, Ghorn, Ochain, and I believe Dura.

Where as the only increase you probably could do to Ghorn and Dura are yet another song or duration/potency, you could be giving PLD some more....usefulness again by giving Aegis and Ochain some shield skill.

Aegis is long overdue for some blockrate adjustments since well...longer than I can remember. Let's just say since Day 1.

I don't have the details personally, but people have mathed out that Aegis clearly has just garbage blockrate for a 130~300m item(depending what the going prices were when said person(s)) created it.

I'm not asking for Aegis to be overpowered and have highest blockrate in the game or anything, no...that's too much to ask for...<cough> Anyways! ^^

What I AM asking is that you please reconsider the fact it's suffered with such a garbage blockrate for too long. The rate of blocking on level 120~ monsters is like, hardly noticable and forces paladins to go get the much more easily aquired Skirmish or JSE shield.

Not really something I enjoy considering I put so much time and work into Ochain and Aegis. Does anybody else out there who actually has one of the two or both for that matter, agree? For gil spent, you want it to be at the top with the other good stuff, right?

Show some support and place your thoughts and opinions in the thread!

If someone has the blockrate math, etc. Maybe posting it here and showing SquareEnix what we're talking about!


As for Ochain, well. I don't know to be quite honest.. The shield skill is still something to be considered, but also considering that it costs anywhere starting from 225,000,000 Gil and higher to go from Ochain 90 to 95 is.... Well yeah.

I guess to sum up my rant/post, as it would apply to all REMs, not just shield and instruments... Give us our time/work/gils worth. Please! Thanks!

---Edit---
I also wanted to add that it's pretty bad that shields get slapped in the face with their shield skill on them, such as Eminent Shield, etc. Wher-as weapons are getting 240+ Parrying or Guarding. What's the deal with that?! ~.~

---Edit 2---
To be a bit more specific in my point also, I'll go ahead and list some comparisons.
Eminent Shield
Shield skill +100

Eminent Baghnakhs
Guarding skill +203

Eminent Scimitar
Parrying skill +215

So when you guys finally decide to add the Aegis and Ochain ToMs.... I really prefer not to see "Shield skill +115" when you added:
Priwen JSE
Shield skill +112

I'd very much rather see something along the lines of 242 for a Relic.
Excalibur
Parrying skill +242

So idealy, we should be getting:
Aegis
Shield skill +242

---Edit 3---
I'll be a little bit more specific to reduce further confusion. My point in this entire matter is:
Aegis shouldn't fall flat on it's face when you spend over 100~300m to make it, then 25~50m to go from 95 to 99 with it. These prices vary depending on when said person made their Aegis.

So ultimately in the end.... Shields such as Aegis and Ochain should be at the top of the rest of the shields.

#1 Ochain

#2 Aegis

#3 Priwen

#4 Beatific Shield +1

#5 Beatific Shield

And so on from this point....

---Edit 4---
In regards to Edit 3, I'll be posting the Aegis block rate formula a friend gave me here for quicker access in viewing. I truely hope to see Aegis rise back to the top 2 shields with an actual block rate that is worthy of such a position, time, and effort spent.

Lv.126 Monster:
126 - 99 = 27 Lv. Differences
So Lv.99 424 A+ skill + 27 * 7 skill per Lv = 613 Combat skill

Aegis base rate: 50%
Throw into formula:

50% + (674 (your skill) - 613 (monster skill) * 0.215 (shield skill multiplier)
= 50% + (61) * 0.215
= 50% + 13.115%
= 63.115% block rate on Lv.126 monsters

[Martel]

Well, I have both shields. And I'm the one who did most of the testing on their block mechanics. But
+242 shield skill would be absolutely ridiculous overkill.

Shield skill doesn't work on the same scale as parrying, guarding, or other combat skills. So it's not reasonable to compare the values in this manner.

Aegis with +242 skill would be physically stronger than Ochain on most content, while maintaining it's powerful magic dmg-. Even on the highest level mobs tested so far, Aegis with +242 skill would only be ~7% block rate behind Ochain, while having a much higher block dmg reduction value. With reprisal up, using Aegis, you'd be looking at a 94.5% block rate on lvl 126 mobs. This equates to a total dmg reduction value of -76.5%. Ochain with capped block rate would only be -66%. And giving Ochain more skill+ wouldn't help it keep up, as it'd already be at capped block rate.

So, while this wouldn't right out give Aegis the highest block rate in the game.. it'd get it pretty close.

I do agree that shields need item level updates. Aegis having a 12% block rate on lvl 126 mobs really sucks. But +242 skill is excessive, and would destroy the current shield hierarchy. Making Ochain a solo toy, and Aegis the all around shield. So all the Ochain wielders would now have an expensive toy, while Aegis owners would have the new best shield in the game.

[Raka]

Well considering I did mention I don't know the math on the blockrates and skill, I do appreciate you letting me know that 242 shield skill would be too much.

However, none the less. Aegis and Ochain, as well as Dura and Ghorn deserve item level status also. Aegis should at the very least be higher than the JSE shield blockrate, which should retain Ochains stance as highest blockrate shield otherwise. That's the very least we can ask for considering time spent and gil burned on such an item. Overall, my expectation is just that Ochain remains highest blockrate as I tried to explain in my OP, while Aegis trails behind it rather than all of these other easily obtained shields.

[Raka]

Right so, a friend of mine did some mathing of his own when I mentioned your post to him, Martel. I'll try to post exactly what he sent me, but:

Lv.126 Monster:
126 - 99 = 27 Lv. Differences
So Lv.99 424 A+ skill + 27 * 7 skill per Lv = 613 Combat skill

Aegis base rate: 50%
Throw into formula:

50% + (674 (your skill) - 613 (monster skill) * 0.215 (shield skill multiplier)
= 50% + (61) * 0.215
= 50% + 13.115%
= 63.115% block rate on Lv.126 monsters

He said he wasn't sure where you got 94.5% from. But let's also not forget that Aegis is capped off at 75% block rate so really wouldn't kick Ochain to the curb. It's just making all the time and effort we put into such an item viable for those who got it and Ochain would otherwise be used firstly in such cases that MDT is not required.

---Edit---
So after he re-read your post, he said he completely overlooked the statement of you mentioning "with Reprisal up" he now realized you were correct, haha. However it's rather situational and in the long run, that's really only with Reprisal. It leaves you hanging for a while if it is dispelled or wears off.

So logically, we're still talking about it being a fair upgrade to Aegis. If people went through the trouble to make Ochain due to the 100% block rates back when it was first introduced, then they will do the same for Aegis. Nothing has changed aside the fact the shield that does matter is back in the #1 place possibly.

Let's just be fair about it. Aegis has just been too neglected to argue right now. I could have put that gil and time to other uses. Would you not agree?

[dasva]

Should also mention that now that RUN finally has ergon weapon it is able to maintain similar magical defense to aegis pld while having a much better physical defense so it definitely needs a bit of an update... and ochain becoming uncapped with priwen being about the same block rate with reprisal up (dependent on base blockrates and such) while offering much better block dmg suggest it's time to get some well more shield skill as well. And both should have already gained more defense trialing them up

[Martel]

Firstly, Let me clarify my position on this. I'm not against Aegis getting an item level update. I'm entirely for it. It does need it. block rate sucks.

However, +242 shield skill, is excessive. It would make Aegis the one shield to rule them all. And it's even golden.

But let's also not forget that Aegis is capped off at 75% block rate so really wouldn't kick Ochain to the curb.

I really wish these block rate cap myths would die out already. I'm pretty sure I've posted more than enough testing to prove there aren't block rate caps.

---Edit---
So after he re-read your post, he said he completely overlooked the statement of you mentioning "with Reprisal up" he now realized you were correct, haha. However it's rather situational and in the long run, that's really only with Reprisal. It leaves you hanging for a while if it is dispelled or wears off.

Considering the adjustment to the reprisal dmg cap, it wearing early is not much of an issue anymore. And if you are being treated as a tank, you should have the buffs to maintain full time reprisal.

However, dispel is a valid concern. You could either lose march/haste, and find yourself with an extended recast, or lose reprisal itself shortly after cast and spend about 1 min with it down.

Thing is, none of that matters. Why? Because a +242 skill Aegis is still superior dmg reduction even without Reprisal.

So, you had your friend calculate block rates. But did he look at block dmg reduction as well? To fully compare the performance of two different shields, you need to use both block rate and block dmg reduction.

So. lvl 126 mob.

Aegis, +242 skill
block rate:63.11%
Block dmg-:-81%
total dmg reduction:-51.1%

Ochain.
block rate:70.23%
Block dmg-:-66%
total dmg reduction:-46.3%

So a +242 skill Aegis would reduce more damage overall than Ochain, even without reprisal.

Ochain has a major weakness, in that its block damage reduction is pretty low. A oldschool Koenig shield reduces more dmg per block that Ochain. <,<;;

You can still make some arguments for Ochain's 7% higher block rate. Higher block rate means better spell interruption prevention, less chance of ws add effects landing, and more stable dmg taken(less spikes)

But only by 7%. And Ochain isn't gonna cap block rate on these mobs without reprisal in any case. So it doesn't reach that super reliable 0 spike dmg taken plane. And when both have reprisal, Aegis block rate is only 5.34% behind.

Who wouldn't just wear the shield with higher overall physical dmg reduction AND be nearly immune to magic damage at the same time?

So logically, we're still talking about it being a fair upgrade to Aegis. If people went through the trouble to make Ochain due to the 100% block rates back when it was first introduced, then they will do the same for Aegis. Nothing has changed aside the fact the shield that does matter is back in the #1 place possibly.

When Ochain first came out Aegis didn't break the MDT cap. Aegis got completely screwed.

Of course people made Ochain, the thing was a total game changer. Incredible dmg reduction, total un-interruptibility, and infinite MP returns. While Aegis.. let you wear less MDT gear to hit cap. ... Oh, and it has a grumpy face.

Then SE acted to correct this imbalance, and gave Aegis something similarly game changing. Near immunity to magic dmg.

Let's just be fair about it. Aegis has just been too neglected to argue right now. I could have put that gil and time to other uses. Would you not agree?

You make it sound like you wasted your gil on Aegis or something. It's still an amazing shield. Against magic. It just sucks physically. Now, if they hadn't changed the MDT into MDT II, then yeah, you'd have wasted gil.

Sure, Aegis needs a boost. But lets not have a reversed repeat of Ochain's introduction. Hopefully, SE has learned enough from having to adjust Aegis once already.

Now, if they do it anyway, am I gonna be mad? Nope. I have both shields. I'll just start using Aegis. And lobby SE for a boost to Ochain. XD

[Camiie]

Sure, make Aegis and Ochain even more broken so Paladin is even more of an exclusive club. That sounds great for the game.

[Mirage]

So when you guys finally decide to add the Aegis and Ochain ToMs.... I really prefer not to see "Shield skill +115" when you added:
Priwen JSE
Shield skill +112

And why not? with 115 shield skill, it would be better than Priwen but a significant portion. Even with less than 112, it would be, though, due to the retarded amount of magic damage reduction it offers.

Make it better, sure, but don't make it ridiculous. (hint, at 99cap, it was ridiculous)

[Louispv]

I believe they said there won't be any instrument or shield upgrades for Aegis/Ochain and Ghorn/Duraballa because even the level 99 versions are already equivalent to ilevel 149. So we'll be waiting a few years for actual ilevel 149 gear to show up before we can upgrade them.

I'd honestly prefer they just made priwen have a 100% block rate without reprisal and just remove everything else it does. The JSE harp is essentially a level 90 Duraballa, but Priwen isn't a level 90 Ochain replacement.

[Demonjustin]

I believe they said there won't be any instrument or shield upgrades for Aegis/Ochain and Ghorn/Duraballa because even the level 99 versions are already equivalent to ilevel 149. So we'll be waiting a few years for actual ilevel 149 gear to show up before we can upgrade them.

I'd honestly prefer they just made priwen have a 100% block rate without reprisal and just remove everything else it does. The JSE harp is essentially a level 90 Duraballa, but Priwen isn't a level 90 Ochain replacement.

Well, in all honesty that's not quite right from what I understand. Yes SE, or rather Matsui I believe it was, said that, but he was wrong to do so. Ochain may have the block rate, but not the damage reduction that should go with it. Also Ochain 90->99 wasn't as amazing as Duraballa 90->99 so to make the shield equal to a 90 Ochain would be very different than making the harp equal to 90 Duraballa. Lastly doing the 100% block rate at all times would be fairly broken I think.



Ok this spoiler is here because I was bored and wrote out a much longer response originally than I had intended in order to explain everything going through my mind. In either case, if you care to read my original reply, here it is.

Yes Ochain has a block rate equal to what they say would be a 149 Shield basically, which if I remember right it's been suspected or tested that Ochain gives something like +200 Shield Skill(something like that at least, might remember wrong) basically when calculating block rate and caps at 100% which are 2 unique things no other shield has. That alone is why it's thought to be such a high level by compare. That reasoning is insanely faulty when you come to the fact of Defense when you look at these shields however. The Defense on a shield from what I understand determines the amount of damage reduction blocks give you. Priwen has 65 DEF, Ochain however has 40, if their DEF determines their damage reduction difference then Priwen at a default 100% block rate would be significantly more powerful than Ochain is besides the MP factor. It also means that while Ochain may have the block rate of a 149 or 150 shield, it's DEF is no where near the level it'd need to be in order to match up.

Secondly, if a PLD actually has any level of Fast Cast or caps Gear Haste they can basically full time Priwen and Reprisal and do better off or just as well as they would with Ochain when it comes to damage mitigation so far as I know. Reprisal lasts 1 minute, and thanks to the last update changing the effects of the spell to basically quadruple the damage being required to remove the effect outside of dispel or it wearing via time you're sure to keep that effect on you in most cases. Add that together with the fact ever endgame event in the game calls for a BRD and Double Marches with Haste being fully viable to have, you're looking at having no issue at keeping Reprisal up at all times. Add that with the fact it has -8% DT and +2 Phalanx, as well as it's Reprisal boost that triples the shields normal block rate and you're looking at what is effectively an Ochain but better in some instances so far as I know.

I won't claim it to all be fact, but this is more or less what I've picked up through talks with a number of PLDs, that includes Martel who I'm sure will pop in here and correct anything I got wrong soon enough and seems like the most knowledgeable PLD around when it comes to these things.



The last thing I want to say is that making the JSE Harp the same as the 90 Empyrean Harp was ok, because the 99 Empyrean Harp truly upstages a 90 with it's having a 4th song. You can't say the same thing about Ochain, it's just not true. Ochain's entire upgrade comes in the form of damage conversion to MP and rather than giving it DEF for a real upgrade it got 5 more VIT which in my opinion always seemed a cop out to stop it's damage reduction from getting much higher. In the end they made this Priwen close to Ochain 90 without making Ochain 90~99 pointless to get. There are situations where Ochain is the only option, the Lion WK/Delve comes to mind with it's ability to constantly wipe every buff you have and making Reprisal retention impossible, but overall Priwen really does replace Ochain when it comes to 'must-haves' in a lot of cases. It's not a perfect replacement to a 90 Ochain, but if it were then 90~90 Ochain just wouldn't matter because no form of Ochain is so different from the original that you could replace one without the others becoming equally as obsolete, they just didn't get the power jump that Duraballa did which is why Priwen really couldn't have been created equal to the 90 version in the same way even if they wanted to.