Solo Accomplishments, Party Barriers, and Enhancing the Community

[Afania]

I don't think it's a good idea or design either, but if the choices are between having that or having what we have now I opt for having the change made. I'd rather DRG be overpowered with their Mythic than have a DRG without a Mythic being so weak that it's not able to really be played in any form of endgame.

I don't agree with you then, because in current design, players can either


1. Job change and don't play DRG.

2. Build a Mythic, honestly it's not THAT hard with alex/assault solo-able now.

And still complete the content.

However, once the dev make 1 mythic DD way too OP and broke the game content balance, there's no turning back. I just told you what'd happen....the gap between "elite" and "avg" gets bigger, when every elite start to build a mythic DRG and make it an event requirement just because the job makes the content so much easier. And all the avg player can't come DD unless they're a mythic DRG.

You should look at the long term effect instead of just simple "players should be able to play DRG, even if there's major balancing/design issue"

Of course the best solution is to buff current none mythic DD weapon and close the gap.

[Demonjustin]

Build a Mythic, honestly it's not THAT hard with alex/assault solo-able now.

If you want to talk about disagreements then we've a massive one right here as well. While Mythics aren't hard at all they're massive time & gil sinks that no person should be forced to do in order to play their job. I could do a Mythic in a matter of months if I cared to, so could any other player in this game practically at this point, but how many are truly going to put that time into it? Even if it were overpowered and the best job in the game it's unlikely you'd ever be able to truly push the player base in the same direction it was in back when people did things like VW or Legion and RMEs were the only option. At that time Empyreans were the most common, followed my Relics, and then far down the line were Mythics. If parties regulated themselves to Mythic DRGs only you'd see linkshells do it perhaps, but shouts? No, not even conceivably possible to make that restriction otherwise you'd have seen it as the restriction for Bee Delve runs even though they often times had Upu as a requirement instead even though it no where near matched Mythic, not because it was close, but because Mythic was an unreasonable expectation.

I won't lie and say no one would try it, but it'd be foolish to think it'd ever work out that way unless literally a 10th of the server's good players actually made DRG Relics, which going back to the whole time issue is so unlikely it's not a real threat. Also in the end it'd be a temporary fix since SE's unlikely to ever let that happen anyways and would likely nerf the Mythic or it's WS not long after in a similar way to how they nerfed VS & Ukko's so long ago I'm sure.

[Afania]

If you want to talk about disagreements then we've a massive one right here as well. While Mythics aren't hard at all they're massive time & gil sinks that no person should be forced to do in order to play their job. I could do a Mythic in a matter of months if I cared to, so could any other player in this game practically at this point, but how many are truly going to put that time into it? Even if it were overpowered and the best job in the game it's unlikely you'd ever be able to truly push the player base in the same direction it was in back when people did things like VW or Legion and RMEs were the only option. At that time Empyreans were the most common, followed my Relics, and then far down the line were Mythics. If parties regulated themselves to Mythic DRGs only you'd see linkshells do it perhaps, but shouts? No, not even conceivably possible to make that restriction otherwise you'd have seen it as the restriction for Bee Delve runs even though they often times had Upu as a requirement instead even though it no where near matched Mythic, not because it was close, but because Mythic was an unreasonable expectation.

I won't lie and say no one would try it, but it'd be foolish to think it'd ever work out that way unless literally a 10th of the server's good players actually made DRG Relics, which going back to the whole time issue is so unlikely it's not a real threat. Also in the end it'd be a temporary fix since SE's unlikely to ever let that happen anyways and would likely nerf the Mythic or it's WS not long after in a similar way to how they nerfed VS & Ukko's so long ago I'm sure.

You completely missed my first option and instantly just pick and bashed the 2nd option. Further more you're acting as if every player on the server insist to play DRG and would never consider other DD jobs.

After years of playing FFXI, I've met 3 types of DRG player:

1. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, they ended up playing other job like MNK to get shit done.

2. Loves DRG and built a Mythic for it.

3. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, continue to use other weapons and full time this job.

99% of the players I know are either No.1 or No.2, I can name less than 5 DRG belong No.3.

Basically, the one who can't afford a Mythic and refuse to play other jobs are the minority.

As for the /shout thing, almost every /shout still /shout for relic RNG. So yes, if the gap is there then the /shout will /shout for it. Even if that become LS only thing, you'd just see elite group able to clear the hardest content in superb efficiency while /shout pt struggle. You either get into the superb group if you want to take the efficiency advantage or struggle with /shout.

If that happens, it affects 90% of the endgame players in this game.

To say it in a better way, whether none mythic DRG is gimp or not doesn't affect me or you, unless you insist to full time DRG without mythic for some reason. But it will affect me and you if you want to make an endgame pt that can clear content efficiently. Me and you would need to spend more time looking for a mythic DRG to do the content.

Back when Rag was OP in legion and legion was the hardest endgame event, finding 5 DD with Rag gave me the biggest headache. Since most other DD jobs such as empy WAR MNK didn't parse as high.

I'd rather just spend 1hr to make the pt and do the hardest event with any DD job and they all perform in highest efficiency, instead of spending 3 days to make a pt and make a Mythic DRG only DD pt for the hardest content.

If they don't buff DRG at all and leave it as it is, it only affects 1% of player who insist to play DRG and wouldn't get a Mythic.

If they make DRG too OP, it affects most of the endgame player playing any job because of the gap between elite OP DD mythic DRG and other DD.

Yes, it'd affect mage players like you because you either have to spend 5hr to make a DD pt full of elite Mythic DRG, or play with a pt with other DD and suffer from worse efficiency.

Of course the best solution is to buff none Mythic polearm, but if this isn't an option, majority's happiness> minority's happiness.

[Demonjustin]

You completely missed my first option and instantly just pick and bashed the 2nd option.

Do you know why? The start of this conversation was based on the idea that DRG is broken. If your solution to playing DRG is to play other jobs until you obtain the best possible weapon in the game for the job you actually want to play, then not only is the job broken but it's in a state so pathetic it might as well not even be in the game. If you have to play MNK, the cookie cutter of the world, just so you can gear up your DRG so that one day you'll have a Mythic or one day hopefully SE will make the job playable then you're looking at a terribly broken job off that basis alone. I know this because I've been in the same situation for years now with my RDM where I'm rejected and told to level other jobs, and for years I have, only recently have I finally come to the conclusion I can either become an exceptional RDM and while I'm rejected still get respect and acceptance from some or continue to give in to the social norms which have caused me to lose all hope in my job. I'm one of the people who leveled other jobs, who took your first option(albeit not in the exact same situation as it was RDM not DRG) and while I got my gear for my job it was depressing to have no ability to actually play my job and rather be forced to play others to attain my goals.

To sum it up, I ignored option 1 because option 1 is a terrible choice to make, no one should have to play other jobs constantly in order to gear up their favorite or main job, especially when that job won't ever be used as a result.

Further more you're acting as if every player on the server insist to play DRG and would never consider other DD jobs.

Actually no, I know others would, I did too and I'm one of the few who actually stayed devoted to playing RDM all these years when the job completely died out and no one wanted it for anything. To say that people would never think to play other jobs is stupid, but just because people would do it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do or that it should need to be done.

After years of playing FFXI, I've met 3 types of DRG player:

1. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, they ended up playing other job like MNK to get shit done.

2. Loves DRG and built a Mythic for it.

3. Loves DRG, can't afford a Mythic, continue to use other weapons and full time this job.

99% of the players I know are either No.1 or No.2, I can name less than 5 DRG belong No.3.

Basically, the one who can't afford a Mythic and refuse to play other jobs are the minority.

The fact they're the minority doesn't mean the change still shouldn't happen. Yes there are few people that would go with option 3, but I assure you that were it not for the fact they actually want to play this game rather than beg everyone to take them to events you'd have a lot more of the people who are picking that first option doing the same. The thing is people don't want to log into this game to go afk or beg every shout they see to take a DRG, they want to do something, that means either they become an exceptional DRG or they play another job, since no one will take a DRG in the first place the chances are that in order to even become an exceptional DRG they'd have to play another job, then they get shafted onto that forever anyways and DRG becomes an obsolete goal. Tell me though, how many people do you know who pick option 2? How many people want so badly to play DRG that they'd go out of their way to make a Mythic just to play the job? I personally know of only 4 Mythic DRGs on my server and 1 of them I know likes the job but hardly uses his Mythic all the same and it's not his favorite job either. That number however, has to be far greater than the number of people who pick 3 otherwise your point is meaningless because apparently the Mythic path isn't too appealing to anyone wanting to play their job.

As for the /shout thing, almost every /shout still /shout for relic RNG. So yes, if the gap is there then the /shout will /shout for it. Even if that become LS only thing, you'd just see elite group able to clear the hardest content in superb efficiency while /shout pt struggle. You either get into the superb group if you want to take the efficiency advantage or struggle with /shout.

If that happens, it affects 90% of the endgame players in this game.

To say it in a better way, whether none mythic DRG is gimp or not doesn't affect me or you, unless you insist to full time DRG without mythic for some reason. But it will affect me and you if you want to make an endgame pt that can clear content efficiently. Me and you would need to spend more time looking for a mythic DRG to do the content.

Back when Rag was OP in legion and legion was the hardest endgame event, finding 5 DD with Rag gave me the biggest headache. Since most other DD jobs such as empy WAR MNK didn't parse as high.

I'd rather just spend 1hr to make the pt and do the hardest event with any DD job and they all perform in highest efficiency, instead of spending 3 days to make a pt and make a Mythic DRG only DD pt for the hardest content.

There's a difference between what that was and what this would be in many ways as well. As I said, Empyreans and Relics were aplenty by compared to the number of Mythics in the world, also Legion content if I remember right had so much evasion a Ragnarok was nearly required on that fact alone, especially when you add in Resolution and the fact that people only PD zerged the event which meant kill speed was the primary goal. You're also forgetting part of the other reason why this was done was to weed out the bad players, there were tons of people with Ukon or Vere but not nearly as many people knew how to play their jobs and could actually get things done right, so requiring a Ragnarok was sort of an idiot-checker to make sure that the WAR you were getting was a somewhat well geared person, not someone who went to Abyssea for a few days and thought they were god. A Mythic DRG is far from something that would become required when we're clearing the content right now without it, so only people who want to maximize their chances of winning would be so stupid as to shout for Mythic DRGs or only accept them, which by the way in doing so would also lose efficiency since the time taken to shout for hours could've been used to try and learn the content in the first place. As for Relic RNGs, that's actually not as popular on Phoenix as elsewhere I suppose. I won't say people don't do it but I know quite a few non-Relic RNGS that go to things like AAs all the time and I also know some groups goto AAs without any RNG at all, a friend of mine was doing MR with PUPs on Difficult for instance. While that mentality does exist(and I grant you that) you're still looking at a large difference in the amount of work put in on something like this, and now that you bring up RNG it's also easy to point out that RNG isn't like RNG, it dies up close, unless they made it harder to kill like a RNG is even if a DRG was more deadly it'd likely never be a true job of dependence on most of this content.

If they don't buff DRG at all and leave it as it is, it only affects 1% of player who insist to play DRG and wouldn't get a Mythic.

If they make DRG too OP, it affects most of the endgame player playing any job because of the gap between elite OP DD mythic DRG and other DD.

Yes, it'd affect mage players like you because you either have to spend 5hr to make a DD pt full of elite Mythic DRG, or play with a pt with other DD and suffer from worse efficiency.

I'm not discounting the effect it'd have on me, not at all. I'm also not looking at it only via the perspective of a mage, my RDM is built to melee as well and my opportunities are few. By making DRGs without Mythics actually playable it'd be throwing more people in there who'll take my DD spot in a heartbeat and leave me with even less of a chance. But really that's as far as I think this would ever go. You and I have different predictions on what would happen in the event they did this, you think that Mythic DRG would become the only DD and everything else would be ignored. I think that the daunting task of making a Mythic to do content would throw people completely off of it and simply make those with Mythics already some amazing DDs while everyone else might over time try to make them, but it'd be probably 3~6 months before it could even possibly become a norm, and by then SE would have had time to figure out a decent way to nerf the Mythic's power down to size.

Of course the best solution is to buff none Mythic polearm, but if this isn't an option, majority's happiness> minority's happiness.

In general I agree, but while we're on the topic of happiness. Go ask those DRGs who play MNK and such to get their gear and progress in the game if they're truly happy with having to cop out like that just to gear their real job. If you ask them that and they actually say yes they're happy that way, then I'll say again you have a point but if the majority of them say that they're unhappy but just have to deal with it, then perhaps your happiness scale isn't quite the same as you think it is. I'll once again use anecdotal evidence of that though by saying right now that I made that choice, and I was never happy about having to make it in my entire time playing this game.



The reason I took apart and replied to every bit of the post is because replying to a single part of your last post seemed to bother you, and I've no want to reply to it as a whole in a single reply, cutting it up in this sort of way is the easiest method to reply to something along these lines. With that said I'd rather not continue this much further, our arguments primarily are based on predictions of outcomes from an update that will likely never happen in general. I am in and have been in the same situation basically every DRG is in with the exception they have a Mythic that makes them acceptable, I relate on that basis and want the job fixed so that they're not forced to make such a thing. You on the other hand look at it only from the viewpoint of how it could affect the game's balance and community and believe it would take us down another dark path we're only finally getting out of. In the end I believe that's where we both stand.

[Mitruya]

It was bad enough being left out of Ceizak Delve because I didn't have Upu. Please don't make me have to have a mythic to play DRG. I don't have months/years/tons of gil to make this. I want to participate in content NOW, not next year when everyone's already done with it. I don't see how this weapon would make a difference to invites - typically any non-MNK or RNG DD is shunned now due to low HP/defense/ability to avoid being one-shotted.

[Camate]

Greetings,

As an overarching theme for job adjustments we are planning to make attack adjustments to damage dealing jobs based on monk’s current attack capabilities.

One aspect of this overall adjustment plan was the skill chain and weapon skill enhancements that gave samurai more power.

• Warrior
  Compared to monk, warrior’s hit per hit strength is slightly lacking as an attacker, and the development team feels a need to give them attack power that is more suitable and in order to do this they are looking into a new type of system.
  
  
• Puppetmaster
  We’ll be reducing the damage gap between each of the weapon skills performed by automatons and make it so you’ll be able to better control your maneuvers to match the attachments you are using.
  
  
• Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
  To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.
  
  As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:
  • Implementation of higher-tier mochi
    By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.
    
    
  • Improvements to the power of special abilities
    Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.
    
    
  • New “Call Beast” pets
    We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.

The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

[Maledict]

• Warrior
• Puppetmaster
• Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster

Please relay to the Dev Team that Dark Knight is in a particularly perilous situation at the moment--for all its Attack capability, it has no niche in Adoulin content that cannot be filled by another Slashing damage-dealer instead.

In general, really, I feel such adjustments should be carried out with the following question in mind: "Why should this job be invited in place of a Monk or Ranger for (insert Adoulin event here)?" If the question cannot be answered for the job under review, then the job should be re-evaluated until it can be. It seems to be an issue nearly as based in psychology ("BG said this was the most optimal, therefore we are using this setup, no arguments") as it is game mechanics--I don't envy your having to deal with this issue across each of the DD jobs, but it must be addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Muras]

Please relay to the Dev Team that Dark Knight is in a particularly perilous situation at the moment--for all its Attack capability, it has no niche in Adoulin content that cannot be filled by another Slashing damage-dealer instead.

In general, really, I feel such adjustments should be carried out with the following question in mind: "Why should this job be invited in place of a Monk or Ranger for (insert Adoulin event here)?" If the question cannot be answered for the job under review, then the job should be re-evaluated until it can be. It seems to be an issue nearly as based in psychology ("BG said this was the most optimal, therefore we are using this setup, no arguments") as it is game mechanics--I envy your having to deal with this issue across each of the DD jobs, but it must be addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. The sad thing is, people have made countless suggestions, good ones even, and DRK still hasn't gotten anything. The issue for DRK, for me especially, is that there's no reason to cast magic, ever. Many people, many DRKs even, laugh at the idea of casting magic but that's because it's always been so terrible. It could be made useful, it just needs to happen. But since it never casts magic, it's like every other DD melee out there; swing until you got enough TP to use weapon skill and repeat (Using your respective abilities when they're up too of course). If I wanted to play a job more along those lines I'd just do WAR or MNK in the first place.

What's even more sad is when you look back when the level cap was raised from 75 and beyond, DRK barely got anything too. Seriously, in short summery:

Higher tier elemental spells (Which are awful... And even more awful with Item Level gear since no weapons DRK gets have Magic Damage+)
Endark (Which isn't bad, but since Item Level gear it's fallen behind too)
Absorb-Attri (It's situationally useful)
Nether Void (Meh)
Arcane Crest (Ugh. Granted many jobs got one of these. Why did SE even bother?)
Scarlet Delirium (We've had this for years now, Camate, so could you pass it along to the dev team that it's as terrible as we thought it would be even BEFORE it was added to the game?)

Only awesome addition, or rather, adjustment over the years was boosting Last Resort to last 3 mins instead of 30 seconds.

Add new Absorbs? Like, Absorb-MEVA, Absorb-EVA, Absorb-MATK... Useful stuff? But now with RDM getting enfeebs along those lines (Which I have nothing against at all, RDM getting these things isn't the problem), even if we did get those absorbs SE would make it so that they can't co-exist/stack. They could make a unique debuff for them ("Absorb-Speed" debuff instead of "Slow" for example) but they wouldn't because... I dunno. Square-Enix.

There're other ideas too floating around, devs just need to take a peek at some old posts in the DRK forum. Although it's pretty dead there these days... I think most people have completely given up, especially after rubbing salt in every DRK's open wound after listing Absorb adjustments and then cancelling them, among other things.

[Glamdring]

Please relay to the Dev Team that Dark Knight is in a particularly perilous situation at the moment--for all its Attack capability, it has no niche in Adoulin content that cannot be filled by another Slashing damage-dealer instead.

In general, really, I feel such adjustments should be carried out with the following question in mind: "Why should this job be invited in place of a Monk or Ranger for (insert Adoulin event here)?" If the question cannot be answered for the job under review, then the job should be re-evaluated until it can be. It seems to be an issue nearly as based in psychology ("BG said this was the most optimal, therefore we are using this setup, no arguments") as it is game mechanics--I don't envy your having to deal with this issue across each of the DD jobs, but it must be addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

and please be advised, a difference of even .1 in DPS output is sufficient to see to it that mnk and rng are still the only permitted DD jobs in those "strategies". not to mention, if you make them viable alternatives to mnk or rng the mnks and rngs will be all over here QQing like crazy.

[Alhanelem]

Greetings,

As an overarching theme for job adjustments we are planning to make attack adjustments to damage dealing jobs based on monk’s current attack capabilities.

One aspect of this overall adjustment plan was the skill chain and weapon skill enhancements that gave samurai more power.

• Warrior
  Compared to monk, warrior’s hit per hit strength is slightly lacking as an attacker, and the development team feels a need to give them attack power that is more suitable and in order to do this they are looking into a new type of system.
• Puppetmaster
  We’ll be reducing the damage gap between each of the weapon skills performed by automatons and make it so you’ll be able to better control your maneuvers to match the attachments you are using.
• Beastmaster, dragoon, and puppetmaster
  To give a rough overview of our plans for these three jobs, we’re planning to boost the combined damage over time capability of the master and pet so that it is greater than that of your standard damage dealer as there are certain costs associated with maintaining pets.
  
  As such, the development team is looking into the following adjustments:
  • Implementation of higher-tier mochi
    By adding new mochi, a pet’s attack and accuracy will be supplemented further.
  • Improvements to the power of special abilities
    Just as we increased the damage value of pet’s special abilities in the January version update, we’ll be making further adjustments to this again as we move forward.
  • New “Call Beast” pets
    We’re still in the midst of planning the addition of new pets, and as an example of a pet that can utilized for a comparatively lower cost, a Lucerewe-type sheep has been brought up as a possible candidate.

The team has been assigning priority to the various job adjustment tasks at hand, so please stayed tuned for further details for each of these adjustments.

That's great and all, but why is summoner left out of this? If the devs think that summoner already exceeds the potential DPS of melee DD jobs (Whether with or without any DPS provided by the master), they have some re-assessing to do.

If you want to argue that their support abilities offset their lower damage, well, the problem here is that 1)Use of those support abilities is subject to the same kind of limitations as the attack abilities, 2) avatar's favor currently lowers damage potential for the summoner (though supposedly they are planning to change this) and 3) Many key buffs available on summoner are not used because they don't stack (nor do they refresh or overwrite) with the same/similar effects provided by other jobs. So we can't use some of them, and the ones we can use require too much waiting to put out or sacrifice our damage capability.