Alliance based content

[saevel]

Somebody has to play support jobs or the group won't succeed, 18man or 6man. If you don't have the time to sink into an MMO, you can't expect to be the best. You should be content with eminent gear and reforged AF, the low tier gear was created for players like you. The top end gear should be to the people who are most dedicated and are able to field the things necessary to win it.

Unfortunately MMO's don't work that way. The "high end" players don't contribute enough financially to justify keeping the servers going, it's the casual players that are actually footing the bill for the game's development. Creating content that they are, by design, locked out of is not only ethnically wrong but will eventually result in a loss of total subscriptions and money. There should never be any content / reward that is out of reach of casual players. The separator between "hard core" and "casual" should not be the gear that is obtainable but rather the speed at which it's obtained. Hard core folk will simply get the gear faster then the casual players, but the casual players should still have the chance at obtaining that gear, provided they put in the time. This is one are that SE is really struggling with, they can't seem to find a balance with accessibility and are really afraid of allowing gear from hard event A to become accessibly through easy event B at a much slower rate. Abyssea was the closest they got to getting it right, casual players could still get their stuff eventually, hard core folks with plenty of time and access to lots of resources would have it done much faster.

If every "hard core" player in FFXI quit tomorrow, the game could easily continue on and the developers would end up adjusting it down. If every "casual" player quit tomorrow, the game would shut down within a month. That is how little hard core players actually matter to non-competitive MMO's.

[detlef]

If every "hard core" player in FFXI quit tomorrow, the game could easily continue on and the developers would end up adjusting it down. If every "casual" player quit tomorrow, the game would shut down within a month. That is how little hard core players actually matter to non-competitive MMO's.

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic point of your post, but I want to point out a typical hard core player very likely pays for more accounts and mules and is much less likely to deactivate any account(s) on a whim. Using myself as an example, between my GF and myself we have 4 accounts with dozens of mules. I personally haven't ever deactivated for ten years.

While I agree that SE should always keep casual players in mind, losing the hardcore players (and hardcore is a subjective term) would have more of a significant impact than you imply. With that said, I'm happy with the direction and current state of the game. My only current frustrations are the end of double XP, the apparently huge time sink of job points, and Ark Angel congestion.

[saevel]

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic point of your post, but I want to point out a typical hard core player very likely pays for more accounts and mules and is much less likely to deactivate any account(s) on a whim. Using myself as an example, between my GF and myself we have 4 accounts with dozens of mules. I personally haven't ever deactivated for ten years.

While I agree that SE should always keep casual players in mind, losing the hardcore players (and hardcore is a subjective term) would have more of a significant impact than you imply. With that said, I'm happy with the direction and current state of the game. My only current frustrations are the end of double XP, the apparently huge time sink of job points, and Ark Angel congestion.

You really gotta understand game demographics. "Hard core" players account for less then 5%, typically ~2% of a MMO's subscription base. So even if every one of them had two accounts, the casual players still dwarf them in financial contributions. It's a separator of time not effort (too many people confuse the two).

[Ravenmore]

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic point of your post, but I want to point out a typical hard core player very likely pays for more accounts and mules and is much less likely to deactivate any account(s) on a whim. Using myself as an example, between my GF and myself we have 4 accounts with dozens of mules. I personally haven't ever deactivated for ten years.

While I agree that SE should always keep casual players in mind, losing the hardcore players (and hardcore is a subjective term) would have more of a significant impact than you imply. With that said, I'm happy with the direction and current state of the game. My only current frustrations are the end of double XP, the apparently huge time sink of job points, and Ark Angel congestion.

Still no where near enough for the game to shut down if they all went away. The game is already at the point were it is unlikely to get another full blown expansion and it it was already well on the way when SoA was released. I am willing to bet SoA was SE plan C if FF14 had failed again like 1.0. Like he said SE would just dumb the game down a bit after seeing the clear rates drop to a unacceptable level.

[detlef]

Still no where near enough for the game to shut down if they all went away. The game is already at the point were it is unlikely to get another full blown expansion and it it was already well on the way when SoA was released. I am willing to bet SoA was SE plan C if FF14 had failed again like 1.0. Like he said SE would just dumb the game down a bit after seeing the clear rates drop to a unacceptable level.

I implied that a hardcore player's subscription is probably more valuable to SE, which almost certainly true. But then we haven't even nailed down what defines casual and hardcore, and if no definition is agreed upon then how can we predict what would happen if one group or the other no longer existed? All I said was that there's more to a hardcore player than $12.95 a month, and that we shouldn't underestimate their impact on SE's bottom line.

[saevel]

I implied that a hardcore player's subscription is probably more valuable to SE, which almost certainly true. But then we haven't even nailed down what defines casual and hardcore, and if no definition is agreed upon then how can we predict what would happen if one group or the other no longer existed? All I said was that there's more to a hardcore player than $12.95 a month, and that we shouldn't underestimate their impact on SE's bottom line.

It's fairly easy to separate the two. How much time do they spend not only playing the game, but reading the forums and optimizing macros and the various builds for their various jobs? The core separator is that hard core players seek entertainment in acquiring achievements and doing stuff that they believe "casuals" can't. If casual players can beat a specific content, hard cores tend to dismiss that content as "easy". Conversely casual players seek entertainment in merely playing the game, unique distinctive achievements are not required for them to feel satisfaction. They invest far less total time into the game, rarely do research and tend to just copy whatever they see other players doing.

As far as costs go, HC players are actually a bad thing from a resource perspective. Everyone, HC and casual alike, pays the same subscription fee yet HC players use far more server resources then casuals do owing to them playing more often. If you are running two accounts and I'm running one, yet your logged in 3x more often then I am, you are still using more system resources, especially if your mules are also logged in with you. Those people running 10 fishing mules at once 24/7 are taking up far more server resources then 10 individual casual players do. HC players also consume content faster then casual players do while being the ones to find and utilize exploits and thus require even more developer time to create and field test content that's "hard core" proof. The only good HC players provide to a game is that they are the ones who lead guilds and provide the information that casual players eventually follow in. You want some HC folks running around making youtube videos doing crazy stuff, but you don't want to build your game around them.

This all applies to non-competitive PvE scenarios. Competitive PvP on the other hand is like any other sport, you want your super stars (HC players) as their competitive drive is what attracts other players to join. Because FFXI has no competitive outlet for HC players to acquire those distinctive achievements, they resort to viewing event competitions and specifically loot acquisition as the distinctive achievements.

[Olor]

The only good HC players provide to a game is that they are the ones who lead guilds and provide the information that casual players eventually follow in. You want some HC folks running around making youtube videos doing crazy stuff, but you don't want to build your game around them.

Well, I have to argue a bit to the other side here - HC players ALSO help create an economy for others. Like, anyone who is buying heavy metal plates is probably not a casual player - but me, as a casual player - I want there to be demand for items like heavy metal plates.

Of course, the solution (especially now that empys etc at 119 are not generally better or much than other weapons available) could be to lower the requirements significantly to get RME to ilevel - because then a lower tier of player would see it as achievable and spend time/gil doing it. Like if the requirement was 200 HMP - more people would see that as achievable, and more people would be building them, and I expect that demand would remain steady despite the fact that it would result in a lot of stored up HMPs hitting the market. Then maybe I wouldn't throw away rift boulders because NO ONE even buys them at 1K

This would also probably be beneficial because people would probably do more of the events that drop the items, since folks would be motivated to farm them for themselves. The hardcore focused economy is VERY fragile. Relying on 50 or so players on every server to create liquidity for everyone is not smart. If you had 500 people building ilevel empy weapons, there would be a lot more interest in events like voidwatch which are open and accessible to everyone to enjoy, especially now that we have ilevel gear.

[detlef]

It's fairly easy to separate the two. How much time do they spend not only playing the game, but reading the forums and optimizing macros and the various builds for their various jobs? The core separator is that hard core players seek entertainment in acquiring achievements and doing stuff that they believe "casuals" can't. If casual players can beat a specific content, hard cores tend to dismiss that content as "easy". Conversely casual players seek entertainment in merely playing the game, unique distinctive achievements are not required for them to feel satisfaction. They invest far less total time into the game, rarely do research and tend to just copy whatever they see other players doing.

Hardcore players copy and paste gear sets, strategies, and play styles all the time. There are casual players who maximize their online time by formulating intelligent strategies and gearing sensibly and who are still driven by gear acquisition. There's too much gray area to truly determine who's who.

As far as costs go, HC players are actually a bad thing from a resource perspective. Everyone, HC and casual alike, pays the same subscription fee yet HC players use far more server resources then casuals do owing to them playing more often. If you are running two accounts and I'm running one, yet your logged in 3x more often then I am, you are still using more system resources, especially if your mules are also logged in with you. Those people running 10 fishing mules at once 24/7 are taking up far more server resources then 10 individual casual players do. HC players also consume content faster then casual players do while being the ones to find and utilize exploits and thus require even more developer time to create and field test content that's "hard core" proof. The only good HC players provide to a game is that they are the ones who lead guilds and provide the information that casual players eventually follow in. You want some HC folks running around making youtube videos doing crazy stuff, but you don't want to build your game around them.

From SE's perspective, wouldn't they secretly want a customer paying for 10 accounts? That was part of my point. Aside from that, I never said that SE should build the game around them. I'm just saying that what me might call a hardcore player's subscription is probably worth more than a casual's subscription. This paragraph you wrote agrees with me.

[Draylo]

Unfortunately MMO's don't work that way. The "high end" players don't contribute enough financially to justify keeping the servers going, it's the casual players that are actually footing the bill for the game's development. Creating content that they are, by design, locked out of is not only ethnically wrong but will eventually result in a loss of total subscriptions and money. There should never be any content / reward that is out of reach of casual players. The separator between "hard core" and "casual" should not be the gear that is obtainable but rather the speed at which it's obtained. Hard core folk will simply get the gear faster then the casual players, but the casual players should still have the chance at obtaining that gear, provided they put in the time. This is one are that SE is really struggling with, they can't seem to find a balance with accessibility and are really afraid of allowing gear from hard event A to become accessibly through easy event B at a much slower rate. Abyssea was the closest they got to getting it right, casual players could still get their stuff eventually, hard core folks with plenty of time and access to lots of resources would have it done much faster.

If every "hard core" player in FFXI quit tomorrow, the game could easily continue on and the developers would end up adjusting it down. If every "casual" player quit tomorrow, the game would shut down within a month. That is how little hard core players actually matter to non-competitive MMO's.

MMO's do work that way, what are you smoking? If you look at any MMO, the people who play two hours a week don't have the best gear in the game. I'm not sure how you can think otherwise, its clear as day. If you play with such little playtime, you shouldn't need to have the best gear in the game. This has been true for almost any MMO I've ever played, even FFXIV where you need ilevel gear to even enter some of the instances to do the fights. You can work towards the gear in FFXI just like the others though, even with minimal play time but it takes a lot longer. There are shouts for Delve all the time, and plenty of people who sell the wins to others where you can buy one and use the items mobs drop in the field to obtain plasm. None of the content in this game is out of reach of players, NONE, it is simply an issue of laziness or unwillingness to participate. How is it my problem that you have two hours a week to play? Why should I be penalized with dumbed down easy content just so you can obtain it? One guy even posted he doesn't have a win because he is a DD meathead who refuses to play support to help a party. Catering to people like that is ridiculous. I also think you are quite wrong about the hardcore players. If you haven't noticed, this game has a very niche userbase and the sub numbers aren't exactly super high. If all the hardcore players quit, I doubt you would have a game left.

[saevel]

MMO's do work that way, what are you smoking? If you look at any MMO, the people who play two hours a week don't have the best gear in the game. I'm not sure how you can think otherwise, its clear as day. If you play with such little playtime, you shouldn't need to have the best gear in the game. This has been true for almost any MMO I've ever played, even FFXIV where you need ilevel gear to even enter some of the instances to do the fights. You can work towards the gear in FFXI just like the others though, even with minimal play time but it takes a lot longer. There are shouts for Delve all the time, and plenty of people who sell the wins to others where you can buy one and use the items mobs drop in the field to obtain plasm. None of the content in this game is out of reach of players, NONE, it is simply an issue of laziness or unwillingness to participate. How is it my problem that you have two hours a week to play? Why should I be penalized with dumbed down easy content just so you can obtain it? One guy even posted he doesn't have a win because he is a DD meathead who refuses to play support to help a party. Catering to people like that is ridiculous. I also think you are quite wrong about the hardcore players. If you haven't noticed, this game has a very niche userbase and the sub numbers aren't exactly super high. If all the hardcore players quit, I doubt you would have a game left.

Unfortunately your quite wrong here. Successful MMO's are successful because they make content accessible. Notice I said content and not rewards, this is because rewards are a result of content participation. Two players participating in the same content should expect the same reward, the difference between hard core and casual then becomes one of time. The hard core player has more time to devote to the game and thus can acquire rewards faster then the casual player who acquires the same rewards only at a much slower pace. This is a pattern seen in many successful MMO's. You release content A, the hard core players tackle and engage the content soon after release and develop an effective strategy, sooner rather then later they complete the content and acquire the rewards. The casual group takes longer to gear up and tackle the content, they generally trail the hard core crowd and copy strategies used, they eventually complete the content and acquire the same rewards. The design cycle of the developer is such that by the time the casual groups start to complete the content, new content is soon released, the hard core crowd isn't even a factor.

Your also wrong about the user base of FFXI. Folks, like yourself, with ample playtime and access to high end resources constitute a very small minority of the player base. Because you only hang out with and socialize with other people of your standing you begin to perceive that the entire game revolves around you. You couldn't be further from the truth, most players don't read the forums, don't research much information and generally engage as a form of escapism and entertainment. This very apparent to me as my time schedule and work / social obligations forces me to engage with and participate in content with the casual crowd. So yes if you, and all your friends, quit tomorrow, nothing would change, at most SE would revise content to lower it's difficulty which would actually be a good thing. If the casual players quit, you'd be finding a new game within a month or two. This is the reality of financing a MMO.