Enmity Revision

[Aeron]

So I gave the recent update a chance to settle in as far as the adjustments to enmity are concerned.

Imo CE generation should be left solely to JAs and MAs.

Now I understand that the recent update reduced the enmity generated by dmg but it seem that it was nowhere near the necessary adjustments.

when you consider that a mnk using formless can do average ws's of 5k in any content where they generate both CE/VE with a ws it makes no sense given the delay of the wpn/the amount of times they can spam the ws.

this design flaw and really it only stems for CE has not been address in the proper context. the elimination of dmg CE is really the fix the game need. Or another major reduction in enmity from dmg.

[FaeQueenCory]

I don't know about that.... Cause... If RUN is ever going to be equal of PLD.... It NEEDS that CE enmity from damage...
Cause damage is how RUN gains enmity. (ironically this tank wants to act like the crappy DDs of old: "oooo ahh... you janked the PLD's enmity with your damage! so speacial." .... to clarify: it needs that enmity from damage to maintain it's hold.)

All RUN has is it's JAs, damage and flash.... and /war can kinda gimp you, because while you might gain provoke... you loose any cures or fastcast you might have had... Unlike PLD who has native cure4.

Mind, currently, RUN is not to that level... but it's getting there, and it can't afford the loss of WS/AA damage enmity.

[Martel]

While I agree that DMG dealt should still generate CE....

RUN's problem is that it has the physical durability of a wet paper sack. Not that it can't generate enough enmity.

In terms of enmity generation, RUN is definitively superior to PLD. RUN has a ridiculous array of enmity tools. Tons of JA, all with notable CE values. And two very good native enmity spells, flash and foil. And foil, being self targeted, generates enmity for every mob on the hate list.

Action			CE	VE
Elemental Sforzo	1800	7200
Vallation		450	900
Valliance		450	900
Embolden		160	320
Swordplay		160	320
Pflug			450	900
Gambit			640	1280
Liement			450	900
One For All		160	320
Batutta			450	900
Rayke			640	1260
Runes			40	160

Foil			320	880
Flash			180	1280

A RUN/PLD using sentinel could Cap CE(10k) in 10 seconds. Mind you, That'd take perfect timing with JA use. So lets say 15~20 for a more realistic value.

Of course, doing this requires RUN's SP, and a rather non standard sub. But even without /PLD, you could still hit 5K~ CE in the same time frame. And that's before accounting for enmity gear.

Furthermore, they have massive native fast cast letting them spam their enmity spells far faster than a PLD.

Wanna see PLD's enmity tool list?

Action			CE	VE
Invincible		1	7200
Holy circle		1	20
Shield Bash		1	900
Sentinel		1	1800
Cover			1	300
Rampart			1	300
Fealty			1	300
Chivalry		1	300
Divine Emblem		1	300
Palisade		0	1800

Flash			180	1280
Enlight			20	180
Reprisal		0	640

Enmity generation-wise PLD's only advantages are greater access to enmity+ gear, and sentinel(which is sub-able anyway.)

Although PLD does has a great advantage in not Losing as much CE. Both via taking less damage, and having enmity+ on already good PDT gear. Which is good, 'cause PLD has a hell of a lot harder timer building CE in the first place. A PLD that wants to build good CE, has to sub /BLU or /DRK for additional CE actions.

Also, using /war for enmity purposes would be really silly. Provoke is really not that good an enmity tool. And cures, while useful for survival purposes, generate truly terrible enmity these days. And RUN isn't going to lose and fast cast from changing subs. They can easily cap fast cast. +60% fast cast during vallation or valiance(which can be full timed via alternating) with 5/5 inspiration merits and Relic aug.

What RUN needs to be equal to PLD, is the ability to survive heavy physical damage. They've got the enmity thing covered even if they didn't melee at all.

[Aeron]

I would like to see different jobs have different modifiers for enmity for dmg.

Make it to where certain ws produce better CE and VE then others.

something that I noticed was that with the decrease in enmity from dmg this actually negatively affected pld. Maybe the solution is that enmity generation be more balanced.

Where reducing the amount of enmity from dmg was necessary for mnk, applying that same equation to pld basically just adjusted the curve lol.

I feel like what they really need to do is really decide what they want to do to mnk as far as is it a heavy DD or a tank because right now its both lol.

[dasva]

Make it to where certain ws produce better CE and VE then others.

This actually already exists somewhat. For example there are the relic ranged ws. Also most magical ws actually give much less emnity per dmg dealt than physical and flash nova gives signifcantly more than it's dmg suggest though I don't think it's been quantified. If I had to guess it gets the emnity of flash from the additional effect on top of the dmg. Would be interesting to see them in general make more ws that are actually useful for more things than just dmg. Because as it is right now it's basically just spam your highest dmg ws nothing else matters most the time unless you are a rng

[Martel]

This actually already exists somewhat. For example there are the relic ranged ws. Also most magical ws actually give much less emnity per dmg dealt than physical and flash nova gives signifcantly more than it's dmg suggest though I don't think it's been quantified. If I had to guess it gets the emnity of flash from the additional effect on top of the dmg. Would be interesting to see them in general make more ws that are actually useful for more things than just dmg. Because as it is right now it's basically just spam your highest dmg ws nothing else matters most the time unless you are a rng

That's interesting... Sounds kinda like what I suspected about Uriel Blade. Cause it really really seemed to piss mobs off.

But really, SE, an enmity enhanced WS on club? Cause yeah, WHMs so needed that. Sword please? And sure, PLD can use club, But that's not something you do for any serious tanking situation.

But anyway, if I ever finish pinning down DMG dealt enmity mods, I might try testing flash nova. <,<

[dasva]

But really, SE, an enmity enhanced WS on club? Cause yeah, WHMs so needed that. Sword please? And sure, PLD can use club, But that's not something you do for any serious tanking situation.

But anyway, if I ever finish pinning down DMG dealt enmity mods, I might try testing flash nova. <,<

Well before they gimped realmrazer it was good enough to encourage odd jobs to use club like pld or even blu. Really should undo that. It's not like anyone really uses club to melee now anyways so no hurt and returning a ws to being decent...

The lower lvl stuff is still the same I think so could use that. But yeah have fun finishing the higher stuff uggg. Though from what you've done so far it seems to fit a similar pattern to old mods so shouldn't take much to verify... just so much content being released all the time it's hard to get around to keeping up with it let alone testing stuff. Flash Nova will likely be rather overly complicated. Like getting part of it's emnity from dmg... but being magical only base dmg not full and then part from the debuff it imparts lol.

[Martel]

Except PLD's DPS output sucks. So we weren't keeping hate via dealing damage anyway.

But since dmg dealt pulls less hate now, but spells and JA are still the same PLD has benefited far more than it has been harmed.

[Selindrile]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, the enmity adjustment positively effected Pld, just not all that much, DD still reach the enmity cap rather quickly and hate bounces from there. (except for Rngs)

Would rather see caps adjusted in some way, but there are some other things that could be done.

Allow us to remove aggro with a job ability (or resting) or something.... or let CE decay in time along with VE.

Rebalance Atonement so that it's maximum damage from capped enmity is based on the mob's level?

750 at 75, +15 damage/Lv after that, so lv119 = 1410 damage, is a start? Could really go higher.

This wouldn't help that much but would help Pld build CE faster.

[dasva]

or let CE decay in time along with VE..

But that would mean we would really have VE and VE2 and no CE lol. Might be a good idea to modify how it's lost. Like this last update allowed emnity to effect how much you lost when you took dmg. And so does hp so maybe make those effects more pronounced and adjust how much is lost in general... but it's tricky to balance