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  1. #11
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    Jan 2012
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    Feary/Sfchakan, I'm astonished by where you come down on this topic, I don't think I've ever heard someone come down on the side of "Whelp you picked a crappy job to enjoy, now you don't get to enjoy things as much as other people."

    Asking for jobs to be buffed so that they'll be desired more does nothing to "break the philosophy of FFXI" in and of itself, but even if they did so in their quest for a more balanced, inclusive playing field, it would easily be worth the loss.

    They didn't intend Run to be as useless as it is, they probably don't even think it actually is, because they seem to play the game in a vacuum. "Novelty jobs" aren't in the design philosophy either.
    (8)
    Last edited by Selindrile; 03-03-2014 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #12
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    Mar 2011
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    Bastok
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    Asking for a job to be buffed is one thing, asking for nerfs to another is... another. Every thread about RUN whines about how OP PLD is and how no one wants another tank for super serious content. Aegis and Ochain need to be nerfed. Wah, wah, wah.

    Other jobs aren't overpowered, RUN is underpowered. It won't ever excel in it's current state at anything. RUN is the job that needs to be adjusted and that's the point that needs to be hammered home to Square.
    (2)

  3. #13
    Player Tennotsukai's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    578
    Character
    Tennotsukai
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I know people are always going to want their favorite jobs to events, but if SE focused a lot more on end game job balance I bet other jobs would be up for debate...instead of the flat out "no!"
    (2)

  4. #14
    Player Peepiopi's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    72
    Character
    Aoikaminari
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sfchakan View Post
    Asking for a job to be buffed is one thing, asking for nerfs to another is... another. Every thread about RUN whines about how OP PLD is and how no one wants another tank for super serious content. Aegis and Ochain need to be nerfed. Wah, wah, wah.

    Other jobs aren't overpowered, RUN is underpowered. It won't ever excel in it's current state at anything. RUN is the job that needs to be adjusted and that's the point that needs to be hammered home to Square.
    I'm only using Rune Fencers as one example, but overall it looks like you essentially agree with my point. You could make the argument that Rune Fencers are underpowered, and you can make the argument that Paladins are overpowered. Either way, Paladins are the only tank job that gets invitations to endgame events, so that means endgame isn't balanced for tanks. But this isn't a Rune Fencer vs. Paladin Discussion, because what is left out of that discussion are other tanks like Ninjas, or other jobs that can fill that role.

    The balance issues also include DD and support jobs as well, and I think that's something that we can all agree on. If a handful of jobs monopolize endgame content when there are 22 to choose from, then there are endgame balance issues worth addressing. No one here is whining, so the rude comments aren't really necessary.
    (5)

  5. #15
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    Dec 2013
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    When it comes to balance, provided the player base magically changed its opinion on jobs and the slate were wiped clean so that lolPUP wasn't a think for instance, and we could all look at the jobs objectively rather than through the scope of having seen and been told for years that a job is horrible, a few things would easily fix up a few jobs.



    Completely remove JA delay.

    -This fixes a few things, mainly DNC & PUP would become much more powerful and worthwhile jobs without the 2 second forced delay screwing us constantly. This would also improve RUN since it relies on Runes and they are tied to the same exact issue. I think this speaks for itself though, not much need to get into details, I'm sure anyone who plays these jobs understand the underlying issue that JA delay creates.



    Completely remove spell delay.

    -By this I mean remove the time after finishing the cast of a spell that spells can't be cast, abilities can't be used, players can't WS, and we can't attack. Removing this makes BLM, SCH, WHM, NIN, basically any job with spells of any kind would benefit, but the most important ones are BLM, NIN, and RDM in my opinion.

    -BLM's damage is tied directly to how fast they are casting, by removing the delay after a cast a BLM can also more quickly Enmity Douse to remove hate, they can more quickly Manawall to save themselves, or they can more quickly cast another spell which leads to a higher overall damage, and thus, greater use.

    -NIN's greatest advantage comes from Shadows and thus any way of cutting down on their spells hindering their damage would be an asset.

    -RDM has enough problems with meleeing as it is, but one of the largest when it comes to melee is the fact it must actively cast spells otherwise it is no different than another DD except that it's weaker, now if this delay were removed a RDM's Fast Cast could play an integral part in speeding up a RDM's activities on the frontlines when it comes to magic. By allowing a meleeing RDM to maintain their damage as well as support capabilities with a much lower loss to their overall damage spells would be cast quickly and take a much smaller tole on damage, it might just make meleeing a bit more viable for the job. This would also help RDMs prep for battle more quickly, as any RDM who melees can tell you, buffs are one of our slowest things we have to do and they are very vital to our performance on the battlefield, buffing normally is very slow and a big part of that is this delay, removing it would cut down our buff time from what is around 25 seconds, to more like 10 seconds. Overall, removing this might finally give meleeing RDMs a bit more of a niche use than they have now when it comes to melee, or in general, since a RDM is supposed to multitask all sorts of things but this delay slows them down a ton.
    (5)

  6. #16
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    Jan 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sfchakan View Post
    Asking for a job to be buffed is one thing, asking for nerfs to another is... another. Every thread about RUN whines about how OP PLD is and how no one wants another tank for super serious content. Aegis and Ochain need to be nerfed. Wah, wah, wah.

    Other jobs aren't overpowered, RUN is underpowered. It won't ever excel in it's current state at anything. RUN is the job that needs to be adjusted and that's the point that needs to be hammered home to Square.
    While I have seen plenty of (justifiable) RUN whining threads, I've seen very few asking Aegis/Ochain to be nerfed, they're complaining that they can't compete with, well, what's supposed to be their competition for the tank slot on, well, anything. I own an Ochain, and am debating building an Aegis, I hope they don't get nerfed, in fact I hope they make the trials easier so one day I'll bring Ochain past 90. But I also have a 99 Run, and yeah, Run that I enjoy the thought of being able to play in content one day, and it needs one Hell of a buff to be used for anything relevant these days.

    Also your last post didn't say "Don't nerf PLD (which nobody called for) RUN needs to be buffed (duh)", it said "Enjoy your useless novelty. Changing it to be competitive with Pld would break the philosophy of FFXI."

    And if you're going to comment about them saying Aegis/Ochain are "overpowered", they are in comparison to other options, and considering the difficulty of obtaining them compared to Other Shield Options, they should be. But the fact that they exist shouldn't make Run not playable. (Though for what it's worth, Pld with Killedar/Beatific still is more useful than a Run could ever think about being on any tank-requiring content.) That's just a testament to how much of a buff Run needs, not that one needs to nerf Ochain/Aegis.
    (4)
    Last edited by Selindrile; 03-03-2014 at 11:49 AM.

  7. #17
    Player Feary's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    129
    Character
    Feary
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camiie View Post
    Killing Easy Prey or Too Weak mobs slightly more effectively than others is not a valid niche.



    Even if that were true, that's a piss poor way to define balance. "Oh your job was good 3 years ago, so take a few years off and we'll get back to you eventually."



    What does any of that have to do with balance? Categorizing jobs is not balance. Making sure they are competitive within their defined archetypes in endgame group content is balance. If a job is categorized as a tank but it can't serve that purpose in any way shape or form in a group setting then the devs have failed at balance.



    Oh, you're using this tired argument? Complete and total B.S. There are now and always have been jobs that when geared and played as well as possible still fall behind other jobs even when those other jobs are totally half-assed.



    Then break it. Smash it wide open. I'll take fun and freedom over some short-sighted, limited philosophy. It's not 1987 anymore.

    again like i said. you are all looking at this game wrong. this is why you are always unhappy and dont understand what S.E is doing.

    in fact, from your perspective this is the tired argument. its ignorant.

    you are basing the definition of "balance" on your opinion of what game balance is. when you define it by your own logic and its never align on how Developers think. this is why you are never satisfied.

    you have to look at this from the actions/responses of S.E over the past decade and not the perspective of the player base. you have only proven that the playerbase does not care about balance, nor do they understand it.

    i mean really, "break the game we dont live in 1987". lol that is the most asinine thing ive heard. the game has already broken because s.e has given in to these foolish perspectives and demands.

    Imo, this is why JPs playerbase seems to be favored, they have always had a better understanding of the game and how/what to ask for. they have actually listen and provide decent feedback. Not whine like a petulant teenagers.

    this is so a mute point. as much as i would like my non mnk jobs to do better damage. like giveing thf most offensive abilities. however, i know the culture of final fantasy and can appreciate it for what it is.
    (0)

  8. #18
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    At this point I have no clue what you're on about, I'm happy with the direction FFXI has taken overall, I have gripes, sure, because nothing is ever perfect, but that doesn't mean as a group we shouldn't strive towards improving things for the majority of people.

    The JP playerbase is favored because the dev's native language is Japanese, how in the world could you come to any other ridiculous conclusion.

    I've been watching SE's responses over the past decade, and amazingly over the past few months, they're actually doing things they've never done before and making honest to goodness improvements that most people have enjoyed lately, so we're proposing more, go figure, right?

    Everyone's basing balance on their own view of the situation, it would be a pretty alien thought to start from someone else's, but some of us at least speak for a general consensus of the NA speaking community, you are not one of these people. We define the logic of balance by the desires of ourselves and the people we deal with/read about, we then try to sway the devs who seem to play the game without taking the community into account when dealing with balance, and as of late, they've actually been kinda listening.

    Once again, you are completely re-wording and straw manning arguments, neither Camiie nor I ever said "break the game", we said "break that outmoded design philosophy of if a job is good in one event, it doesn't need to be any good in others", because all events are not equal, a job that happens to be good at soloing dynamis isn't enough anymore, nor was it ever, really, but today we might actually have a dev team progressive enough to listen.
    (6)

  9. #19
    Player Peepiopi's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
    Posts
    72
    Character
    Aoikaminari
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Feary View Post
    The Game is Balanced to not be Evenly balance, every jobs has a niche and that is the balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feary View Post
    you have to look at this from the actions/responses of S.E over the past decade and not the perspective of the player base. you have only proven that the playerbase does not care about balance, nor do they understand it.
    Feary, you have the strangest idea of class balance that I've ever seen lol. I honestly think you're being sarcastic at this point. Let's say your right though. What you're implying is that SE's goal is to create new game content and boss encounters where only a few classes are viable at endgame at a time, while the rest should be happy with being relegated to minor roles soloing older content, because that's their "niche". The perspective of the player base doesn't matter, because picking the "right" job for endgame is all part of the strategy.

    If that's truly the case, then you basically mean that SE is content with alienating the rest of the players who's favorite jobs are now excluded from being able to participate in endgame content, since it's not their "niche".

    I really find that hard to believe, because if that were truly the case, then why do you think they bothered releasing ilvl119 gear for all the jobs? I mean, since only about 6 or 7 of them are going to really need them in the end.

    Your idea of class balance is basically the formula for what makes an mmo lose subscribers. Stick to the original class concept regardless of it works in your latest game content or not. Hey you might be content with that, but a bunch of other people aren't, and I'm sure that SE isn't content with watching their game continue to shrink. That's why we're leaving this feedback or.. "whining" as you like to put it, because more than any other time in the past, I get the feeling that this development team is more focused on moving forward with the game and finding success with FFXI again, rather than watching it go down like a sinking ship.
    (5)

  10. #20
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    715
    Character
    Damane
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Xantavia View Post
    Unfortunately, I think this is a total pipe-dream, partly because of the player base. If the jobs aren't exactly equal, there will be those who want only the best, no matter how small the difference. If one job does 10,000 dmg over the length of the fight, but another job does 9990 dmg, they won't want the weaker job. I mean, that 10 point difference might make the battle last a minute longer. Seems people only care about having the quickest, safest, and easiest path to a win and don't even want to try something different.
    its difficult yes, but its not impossible. I agree with the OP some things need nerfing and some things need to go away:

    Things that need to go away:
    - BRD COR rotations, make it so buffs wear instantly off when going out of PT
    - Pets takeing insane amounts of damage, I can understand their concern of makeing Pet Jobs too OP with this, being able to solo things: simple fix, transfer half of pets enmity allways to the master, for every action/dmg the pet does. But let the pet survive seriously...
    - Allow Pets to recieve buffs
    - Give RDM and SCH cure V, allow Temper, Gain and barspells to be cast on other PT members, make Adloqium of SCH more potent scaleing with enhancing skill to 5 Regain/Tic, up RDMs magic skill grades a bit, give RDM a unique Fastcast spell that enhances FastCast. There 3 Healer with different buffs and specialities to offer.
    - Reduce bloodpacts recast maximum to 15 sec, while makeing so that pet damage/enmity is transfered half over to SMN. More dynamic and damaging job
    - up magic damage to be even more competetiv then melee damage
    - Remove JA delay
    - Nerf Aegis , ESPECIALLY AEGIS
    - Equalize BRD COR GEO: Give COR and GEOS haste rolls/geospells and a scherzo roll/geospell, have luopans not die fast, make indispells castable to other PT members, make luopans able to follow PT members.

    I am sure the list would go on, thats what jumped my mind first
    (5)

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