Automaton massacre: The need for some form of Automaton damage mitigation

[Balloon]

Not only that, target marker and attuner aren't working, so we lose out on that acc

Also, just from the brief tests I've performed, it appears that Heat Seeker isn't working, or works differently than adding an amount of Acc. This was tested with thunder manuevers and without, and during different HP% and times during a battle, there was never an increase in accuracy.

They mentioned food, but I hope to god that we don't just get Pet acc + food that completely forgets about the owner. That'd be the worst.

I agree wholeheartedly on Valoredge and Harlequin. I've always loved Harlequins model too, it's such a shame that he's just the level 10 frame that never got love beyond that. I wouldn't mind seeing the Valoredge frame get some dmg buffs, especially their ws, to make them compete with Sharpshot. He has around 966 defense with a divinator, and while that alone isn't going to save him against AoE spam it does help. He just sort of sucks, though.

[fjamesfernandez]

Wow so much rage in this thread. I am a fellow PUP and honestly I don't have the problems that you guys have; but for starters (because I know how people can get and text is evil) I am not claiming that I am a better player than anyone else. Everyone has their own way of playing and suggestions and combining tactics to make your own is the way to go.

Now yes, So our Automaton are squishy, but how are you going about the fight and knowing your mob. If you are soloing and have your pocket WHM knowing that the mob does AOE damage why have your pocket WHM close to you? and are you buffing your it with earth and wind maneuver before hand? You are already setting up your own failure by spending time doing maneuvers and Ja to save your automaton. Clearly you needed to give space between the MOB, You, and your Automaton.

Doing Maneuvers do not take away from your DPS and if it is, its because you are doing them right after your character attacks and not during. Its like NIN casting shadows You either cast shadows after you get hit or during your character is in the hitting animation so that you can keep on going. The only way you can really lose your DPS is if you have to reposition yourself to keep your automaton away.

Valoredge isnt all that hopeless. Yes strobe can be crappy with flash and of course your pocket PLD isnt going to keep hate if you are pounding out the DPS, duh. First and foremost, you are the tank for the most part, not the other way around. The trick is using your damn JA. You build enough hate than transfer it over using "Ventriloquy." If you want you can even put on some enimty accessories to build a some what max hate and then transfer it over. There is many ways you can address this.

As far as ACC goes, I am not having any problems with hitting things on new content. Look over what animator you are using and make sure that the attachments you are using isnt effecting your melee or racc. For instance "drum magazine" it clearly says youll sacrifice racc for ra speed or if you are using hammermil which will give automaton slow to increase shieldbash. Attacking at a slower speed not only messes its dps output but its hate as well.

So again, I cant say too much because I am not there to see how you play on PUP. Only issue I had on updates is the increase of delays on Activate, deactivate, deploy and retrieve. That has messed me up but I gotten use to it. Oh but i do agree on the out dated frames and some being left in the dust lol PUP should of had an EMP frame and Relic frame if you ask me.

[Balloon]

Why do people keep thinking we're talking about solo content. I just want to say, for reference, here on out. I'm talking about ilvl 115-119+ party based content using a DD frame.

We're talking about AoE from new content where the automaton would be in melee range. And if you think that Maneuvers don't take away from your dps then you don't understand JA delay. It's a real thing. It's the reason you end up losing dps when you use boost on mnk.
Even besides that, the whole deploy it out of range can be tricky when the automaton has a penchant for standing 15 yalms from a mob.

I don't use Drum Magazine on newer content. I'm not stupid. I know what attachments are.

if you are using hammermil which will give automaton slow to increase shieldbash.

Hammermill does not do that. The word Induce means inflicts onto the mob.

Look at Psions post for reference.

This really isn't a matter of subjectivity anymore; /checkparam gives us a perfectly good indication of how lacking an automatons Acc is. 3 Thunder + Divinator + Some acc gear put me barely around 800, which is not even near cutting it for a lot of content. It's shocking to me that a Wyvern with a 119 weapon has over 100 base acc than an automaton with divinator, when a wyvern is ostensibly a secondary component for that job.

JA delay has been known for a long time, and it's worth knowing about for any job considering the pretty substantial hit you take on dps when using it. MNKs, for instance, should know when and when not to use boost. There's very rarely a reason to. It warrants a discussion of it's own, frankly, as it's one of the games biggest flaws when it comes to balance of jobs like RUN, DNC, PUP and some other JA heavy jobs.

And I don't mean to sound annoyed or angry, but when 4 different conversations are going on and diverging from the one I'm trying to have it can be quite frustrating.

Yes strobe can be crappy with flash and of course your pocket PLD isnt going to keep hate if you are pounding out the DPS, duh.

I don't think you should be saying duh to someone who appears to know quite a bit more about what he's talking about (Psion, not me). Pounding out the dps isn't relevant, look at what he said, it can't keep hate against a naked level 99 spamming t1 spells. It has strobe, and only strobe, as a way to generate a decent chunk of emnity on it's own.

[fjamesfernandez]

I know you meant party based from reading on other pages. I haven't tried AA with PUP yet to check on the ACC there. But I know Zero was hitting with no problem on REM runs on Normal and higher and I don't have Divinator yet so that something I have to look into. Ill check the delays on Ja's. I just know that while attack and the animation is done and you pop a maneuver it takes about 3 sec to start attacking again while doing the JA during attacking doesnt seem to effect me.

It's good to read some thoughts here though so we can notice things that we didnt bother before

[Balloon]

You can't really eyeball that stuff, but people much smarter than I have mathed it out.

There's a collection of dps spreadsheets that show just how detrimental they are - FFXI DPS .

[Feary]

No, I do runs with my LS. And they go with MNKs for DD, or all-mage parties. They don't want WARs, and they rarely accept PUPs. But you can ignore the bigger fact that most shout parties also prefer MNKs over other DD if you want, we can all pretend this doesn't happen if it makes you happy.



Thats the old insulting term that made Pups excluded from xp parties in the old days, and made some Pups quit the game in disgust. Good to see you are keeping the prejudice alive. Infact there's nothing lol about Pup. I used to get requests to solo Cop "magic pots" battle for people who were stuck on the mission, on my Pup four years ago, because the deactivate system made Pup the only reliable job to solo it. Also I solo'd WOTG last boss on my pup for people who were stuck on that mission, years ago, again because Pup's deus-ex kiting ability made it soloable when most other jobs found it impossible to solo. Solo'd T4 black dragon on Pup, which is a tough mob to solo because of bio aura and HP-down etc. it was a very hard battle to solo even a year ago and theres nothing "lolpup" about it. And btw I did all that using the "slow" maneuvers system which isn't a problem at all unless you are a very impatient person.



Thats pretty childish, plus I never claimed to be anything, I said I've played Pup for eight years. And in 2006/2007 I had to solo and duo Pup to 75, incredibly slowly, because of the "lolpup" myth created by elitist snobs, which meant Pup didn't get invited to xp parties so we solo'd / duoed to lvl 75 very slowly. You learn a lot more about the job soloing it to 75 than you learn by keying in Altepa[a] btw.

My first post here was offering advice because the OP was complaining about his auto dying. I merely pointed out a strat that works for me to keep that auto alive. He then said his auto died in the new colo rieves, so I offered my experiences on that which is that my whm auto hasnt died in that rieve and he could try this strat.

I was actually trying to be helpful at the start of this thread, because I haven't had the problems this OP has got and I offered my strat to try and help him. But then it got ugly and now we're back to "lolpup" and "you aren't a serious pup" and this other childish playground insults.

i'm not pretending it doesnt happen. you're pretending its because its your a war or rather a non-mnk. there are other factors, which in your grand scheme of thinking "if i want to do content its my damn right to play whatever job desired/ regardless of my progress or battle strategy." you will never agree with those factors because it doesn't serve your purpose so you will try to disprove/ignore.

The fact that you mention that you are in a linkshell and they still dont invite you. i think that serves to reflection of your own abilities, your linkshell leader(s) character and not a job abilities.

which leads to me to my original point, the one you think is childish. lolpup is not a myth, Pup has been given the nickname Lolpup for two reasons. one is the job abilities in the grand scheme of job selections and two the abilities for players to understand how to play the job. Most people who play pup are fans and not really players who want to get somewhere.

IMO Pup as a concept is awesome and to play it is unique and entertaining. therefore making it a novelty. Nevertheless, i find it fun but in actuality i know its lackluster. although, i have all the AF(s) 5/5, animators,endgame gear, All attachments and took the time to skill it up without pages. i would never suggest or demand i go pup or any job to content that i know another jobs would be better at. i'm just not that selfish or self-centered. ironically, i find that people who do this are childish. i look at the whole picture of 22 jobs and the battle strategy not the one job in the the stragedy of i want to play in that moment. Over the years, its been getting better, much better. either way, which is why balloon made such a post, because it needs improvement. Namely, the JA Delay from constant use of maneuvers and having to favor attachment elements.

yes you give many many many examples why players arent pup effectively and how they dont know how to play etc etc, yes i agree that is the bigger issue. however this issues you have mentioned can be solved with exposure to the job, educating the playerbase of the pup strengths and weakness.

the real important issues balloon and i have mentioned cannot be solve this way, it must be solved by s.e making a job adjustment.

p.s sorry to other ppl in post, i only read his comments to me and hit reply.