Automaton massacre: The need for some form of Automaton damage mitigation

[Balloon]

You don't hear 90% of top dier dds complaining about the inability to solo stuff because it isn't that relevant. What exactly are you all soloing that a MNK/DNC can't? Salvage? Dynamis? Most jobs do fine in there. We're not even really the best soloer, thanks to the fact that our automaton has some truly abyssmal AI. I'd argue that BLU is far more effective, and DNC, and those can actually compete better at the content that I'm describing than pup ever could.

I don't want to change it to be like other jobs. PUP is unique, and with the right combination of gear, can be powerful in it's own right. But it's hindered by a few very solvable problems. One being survivability and the other being JA delay. You keep thinking I want it to be like other jobs, but I see no reference to that in my posts. Being able to actually do content isn't 'like other jobs'. It's kinda the point of jobs in this game.

I really don't think the request is that unreasonable. I don't know why you keep thinking I'm asking for our job to be turned into a MNK+RNG instead of just asking for the one unique aspect of our job to be able to, you know, actually be utilized effectively.

And your argument seems to boil down to 'PUP was always bad, so why fix that.' It's an incredibly defeatist attitude. PUP was born out of mismanagement and compromise, why keep it there? (Referring to the fact it was Necromancer, was given a C h2h skill and was generally appalling.)


This whole 'find your niche' thing is so incredibly pointless when that niche isn't relevant. What have we got, Kiting (I can't think of a serious reason to ever do this) and soloing old content (though not as much as say BLU or DNC can accomplish.)

Then there's the 'It's the players that think pup is bad.' No. Just no. lolpup was more accurate back in the day, sure, but it still applies.

I mean your argument has just been wrought with strawmen that you're basically discussing something completely different to me. I don't want PUP to be this do-all ubermench of a job, but you know what, if I feel like going pup to something it shouldn't be such a chore. It applies to no other job, going BLU, or going DNC might not be the ideal solution to a problem, but it's not so laughably awful that nobody would take me. Same applies with BST. I don't want pup to be the best at something. All I want is for pup to be at least partially relevant. I like the job. I want to use it for something other than soloing salvage.

[Balloon]

Your view doesn't really affect the actual mechanics of the game. JA Delay is a thing, and the last thing pup needs is the -30~40 acc that an ilvl 117 claw would give. All your solutions are based around compromise, which is the last thing pup needs.

Manuevers destroy DPS. That's a fact. Using maneuvers in battle is a bad thing. It's a bad mechanic because of JA delay.

Your uses are so niche that it's laughable. Why are you treating what I'm saying like is LETS REPLACE ALL OTHER DDs WITH PUP. I can't go to Skirmish/Delve/AA/Celestial Nexus on pup, because my automaton dies too quickly.

I mean I can't even begin to comprehend your argument that pups af is silly so the job should be too. Seriously?

And you should really take 5 minutes to understand the limitations of this game if you think maneuvers are an acceptable solution to anything.

Of course you don't have a problem, you're going to crap tier content.

[Balloon]

I don't even see what's offensive about that, the word crap? You've cited New Col reives, Soloing level 75 nms, and GEO AF quest. That's not the content I'm talking about.

By the way, there's a reason Monk is taken over other jobs and it's pretty much the exact problem I'm talking about. They're not the best DD, really, but they have more HP and can survive some of the larger AoE moves. Most jobs have ways to mitigate this, even Wyverns. Automatons don't. That's the problem.

[Frost]

Baloon, assuming you're just really upset and passionate about what you're talking about, I suggest you reread what some people here have written with a more objective eye. What people are saying, and what you think they are saying (by way of restating their comments) are a little "off".

If you wish for me to clarify further I will, but you seem like a smart guy and I think you'll figure it out. We're on the same side, try to see why I said that.

[Balloon]

I read what you put, I understood it, I just don't agree. Being more effective at older content and solo content is not a good justification to being absolutely useless in current content.

I never asked for the automaton to become the 'best' at anything, I never even asked for a buff in damage from either automaton or master. I think puppetmaster is in a good place in terms of damage, to be honest, barring a few accuracy concerns from the automaton. All I ask is that the automaton shouldn't have to die after 2 AoE in content that where heavy AoE is the norm.

This isn't even a new problem, it was a problem in voidwatch where the pets were given no mitigation too. If anyone is misrepresenting peoples arguments it is Stompa, who seems to think I want puppetmaster to be the worlds best healer, damage dealer and paladin. All I want is for the entire focus on my job, my pet, to be able to be something I can rely on.

I can't think of any decent content that pup excels at. I can farm dynamis and salvage on it, but I can equally do that on THF or DNC or MNK/DNC if I so wished. I can't solo older content with the same efficacy as BLU due to a combination of bad Automaton AI, MP management and AoE. I just wish people would stop pretending that puppetmaster sits in a good place because of it's ability to do outdated content.

When my Automaton is alive we can compete, when my automaton is dead 90% of the time we cannot. I don't think the proposed 'solutions' are solutions at all. If anything, they're worse.

I don't think the problem is that I'm trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I think it's that I have a square peg on a board made of nothing but round holes. I'm bad at metaphors.

[Selindrile]

Before I say what I'm going to say, don't get me wrong, I -do- think Pup could use a buff, and I wouldn't be opposed to automaton survivability.

That said, I've done many SKNM Difficult, and AA Difficults with Pup in the party, they're actually one of the better DD for many AA because of their ability to clear hate. They're used somewhat frequently here on Fenrir.

I haven't done nexus or fulcrum with them, but there's a lot of other jobs I haven't done them with either, that don't get to go to AAs either. If you're not familiar with the strategy, use /nin to avoid AoEs, keep your pet out of range (which is easy to do if you know what you're doing) and use ventriloquy and dismiss your pet to clear your aggro, it's extremely useful with a Pld tank. If your Pup has a good Acc TP set and uses sushi, you're a worthwhile DD because you can also clear your enmity and keep DDing where the most other DD (except Drg, or Rng, who can get away with /Drg) just have to suck it up with bouncing aggro till they die.

Delve after the latest update, is not so bad, and while I haven't done it with a Pup yet (I've only gone twice after the delve adjustment), I can't imagine it being a problem, especially Tojil, and I used to have Pups in my delve farming runs before the strategies were well known and people started actually killing bosses consistently instead of just farming.

And Pup does have the edge on Dyna farming for their ability to target WS procs, nobody else can do that efficiently. That said, if you've got no competition, just going Thf is probably better. But if there's a decent amount of JA proc competition at that time, Pup is quite nice to be able to target WS proc instead and so not overcrowd the mobs.

All that said, JA delay is a huge issue for Pup, and I'm a giant fan of making JA delay much, much lower, for Pup's sake, for Run's, and especially for Dnc, reducing JA -> attack delay considerably would allow you to use more maneuvers without sacrificing so much DPS.

TL;DR: I don't think Pup is in the dire situation the OP describes, but it could use a buff, as could most jobs that aren't the extremely popular ones.

[Balloon]

I'm not really claiming it's dire, I already said I think it's a potent enough dd. I just want my automaton to be alive more.

[Ravenmore]

At this point there not much reason to level anything other then mnk for DDs so any argument that DDs shouldn't all be able to do the same thing is out the window. Don't really care about pup but really mnk is so good why would you take any other job other then you couldn't find enough people willing to whore them selves out on a job they hate to gear up a job they like. Really it not just pup it's every job that isn't whm, brd, mnk, sch and pld for the time being for a few fights and only a few.

The only real solution to this is give every job the same level of safety net mnk has and a JA that does the same as formless strikes until then you will have content that people just mnkx3, brd, whm sch their way though. People can sit here and say it's a player base problem but the real problem is SE doesn't know crap about balancing jobs in the first place. I can tell party leaders till I'm blue in the face that my blu(really no pun intended) can keep up or do better then most shout crap mnks but they will still take the shout craps cause it's just like back when sam was top of the heap simply due to it being the hardest job to derp up. Leaders don't have the time for me to list off every gear set I have to get to the level to pass shout mnk when they can just take the shout mnk and be done with it.

Sadly though Se won't buff other jobs up to the same level, they will nerf mnk into a unless job and then some other job will take it's place (most likely mura sam).

[Balloon]

While we're on the subject how is that a Wyverns Acc is around 100 more than an automatons base acc with divinator?

[Psion]

Not only that, target marker and attuner aren't working, so we lose out on that acc, and the stabilizers aren't even a % based acc boost, but a static one. Even with 3 thunder maneuvers we gain like 40 acc at most. not nearly enough to make up for the horrifically low acc automatons have (even WITH divinator, which adds 50ish accuracy over eminent if you include the boost from stats.) My automaton pretty much has floored accuracy on hard mode arkangels, making anything but black mage automaton useless, and even that only does about 2-3% total damage in a fight. Automatons really are only good for some back up heals during a fight and sacrificial hate dumps using ventriloquy for a master now.

And i agree with you wholeheartedly with the flimsiness. said ark angels basically one shot oniwaka with dual armor plates every time they AoE, from full health. Nothing's going to assist with that, save boosting all automatons defense quite higher than what they currently are and/or quintupling their HP pool. Maneuvers also need to be increased in their duration to 5 minutes so there's actually use in using them. Just adjust their burden to match the new duration and call it even. There will still be a need to change maneuvers in certain situations, and in others we will still just keep the same maneuver combo up full time.

Some basic complaints i have with automatons:

-They're squishy. oh so squishy.

-Their accuracy is terrible. Oniwaka has around 700 accuracy at best. My pup has around 950 with madrigals and sushi, and even I have about 80% accuracy on difficult arkangels. This means that Oniwaka's accuracy is floored in the same fight, making him useless for damage. We need our target marker and attuner fixed, and stabilizers changed to a % acc bonus instead of static boosts. 5% and 10% base for stabilizer I and II would be a fairly nice start to fixing automaton's accuracy issues.

-JA delays coupled with having to maintain 3 maneuvers (that means 6 seconds of every minute lost for the master, damage wise, or 10% of the time) is a damage killer. our maneuvers need a greatly increased duration to make up for this.

-Our black mage automaton's magic acc is terrible against tougher foes, even with tranquilizer, 3 ice maneuvers, and optic fiber. Not only that, our teir V nukes are hardly much better than a teir II nuke from a black mage, and we can only cast a nuke every 30 seconds (and it takes 10 seconds to cast!) give us a massive magic damage boost augment that put our black mage bot closer to a real black mage, and an attachment that changes its AI to spam lower teir nukes with the rare tier V nuke. Also toss in a tranquilizer II attachment to help us get over the massive magic evasion tougher mobs have. I'm not joking just how lopsided a match it is nowadays. When a smn/sch can outdamage an automaton's nuke output over 10 minutes in only 1 minute, something is seriously wrong. Before our black mage bot could nearly rival a black mage in power. now... not so much.

-Valoredge sucks. he can't hold hate, and strobe is pathetic at generating enmity. And because automatons take hits like a wimp against tougher foes, he loses what enmity he has faster than he generates it. We need a strobe II, attachment that keeps him from losing hate, and better defense/self healing capability. Even if he can't rival a pld in power, at the least he should at least be able to hold hate against a naked meleeing black mage. (he doesn't.)

-Harlequin got left by the wayside. he needs a revamp. mighty strikes is nice, but perhaps giving him a second hit per round, like a hand to hand user, and improving his damage output would help, as well as giving him a unique powerful blunt ws.

-fine tuning needs to be adjusted to 5% boosts, not +5, like optimization is. in the days of 75 cap it might have made sense, but in the days of ilvl gear and monsters with ridiculous evasion, +5 acc is nothing.


Now don't get me wrong, there's been some nice adjustments, such as the change to magic haste for the turbo chargers that was much welcomed. but there's a serious need for a super pupdate like we got from days of old, because pup has been left by the wayside ever since ilvl gear. It's time for the dev team to come and save us pups from the shunning of the community once more because of our jobs shortcomings. We're not demanding to be the top DD for everything, but at the least it should be great enough that when we say we have pup for an endgame event, people gladly let us come as our job, instead of making us come monk or dragoon or ranger.