Put me in coach! Fix me first though!

[Selindrile]

That's alot of gear to equal a run/rdm native cure casting speed,

Rdm: Caps Curecast in 2 peices.
Sch: Caps Curecast with only fastcast peices they'd use anyway.
Whm: Caps Curecast because it's one of their most important functions anyway
Blm and Brd and Geo may or may not cap curecast, some do, some don't.

I was mainly pointing out that others, many of them, cap out on cure cast time just like Run, Run is not really exceptional in this way.

/rdm adds more Mp, Cure3, Cure4, MaB, Convert, Fast Cast, Sneak, Invisible, Haste, Raise (on a very fast timer), much more efficient and safer way to tank than third eye Seigan or /nin shadows (shadows are not what they use to be) alot boss mobs go through shadows like they were non existent (not a viable option IMO) and in lowman situation you cant rely on a mage to babysit you, you got to win and that means being more self reliant so I go /rdm

Cure3: Same function as Cure4, /Whm also offers this and if you need -na spells as well or to support others, this is the better choice.
Cure4: Same as above.
MaB: Not a huge effect on lunge which is not a huge portion of your damage.
Convert: This is one of the good parts of the sub, it just doesn't outweigh the things others offer.
Fastcast: Irellevant/Useless, you cap in 2 easy to get peices and 1 you want to get anyway without it.
Sneak/Invisible: /Nin, /Dnc, Whm offer sneak and invisible.
Haste: Whm offers Haste also, Blu Refueling, and Sam Hasso with a JA haste component.
Raise: Not relevant when you're talking about soloing, and when you're not, /Whm also covers this and allows you to Barspell AoE and -na spells, most notably stona.

If you think handling damage with Cure is more efficient and safer on most mobs than shadows or TP or even Cocoon and Wild Carrot, you are seriously misinformed, generally anything that Shadows are not terribly useful on, you're better off subbing /Blu or /Dnc for the stun on a low timer to stun aoe spells. I'll give you that Seigan/Third eye isn't terribly efficient but that's again, mostly an offensive sub with a defensive option.

I'm not saying there are no situations I'd recommend /Rdm, I'm simply saying they're few and far between.

[Cljader1]

Rdm: Caps Curecast in 2 peices.
Sch: Caps Curecast with only fastcast peices they'd use anyway.
Whm: Caps Curecast because it's one of their most important functions anyway
Blm and Brd and Geo may or may not cap curecast, some do, some don't.

I was mainly pointing out that others, many of them, cap out on cure cast time just like Run, Run is not really exceptional in this way.



Cure3: Same function as Cure4, /Whm also offers this and if you need -na spells as well or to support others, this is the better choice.
Cure4: Same as above.
MaB: Not a huge effect on lunge which is not a huge portion of your damage.
Convert: This is one of the good parts of the sub, it just doesn't outweigh the things others offer.
Fastcast: Irellevant/Useless, you cap in 2 easy to get peices and 1 you want to get anyway without it.
Sneak/Invisible: /Nin, /Dnc, Whm offer sneak and invisible.
Haste: Whm offers Haste also, Blu Refueling, and Sam Hasso with a JA haste component.
Raise: Not relevant when you're talking about soloing, and when you're not, /Whm also covers this and allows you to Barspell AoE and -na spells, most notably stona.

If you think curing with MP is more efficient and safer on most mobs than shadows or even cocoon often enough, you are seriously misinformed, generally anything that Shadows are not terribly useful on, you're better off subbing /Blu or /Dnc for the stun on a low timer to stun aoe spells. I'll give you that Seigan/Third eye isn't terribly efficient but that's again, mostly an offensive sub with a defensive option.

I'm not saying there are no situations I'd recommend /Rdm, I'm simply saying they're few and far between.

If you say anything /whm you are essentially agreeing with me, since my position is that /whm or /rdm are the best tanking sub for run. So your /whm argument is null and void, as for the rest of your argument you picked out several different subjobs to compare them to the utility of /rdm, you are proving my argument for me. In case you missed it the first time, I'll state my position for you again /rdm or /whm are the best tanking subs for run, they offer more durability, survivability, and helps creates a more self reliant tank.

[Selindrile]

/Whm is a terrible tank sub, though not as bad as /Rdm, it's a good lowman/solo sub at times and generally better than Rdm at those times.

I'm comparing everything to /Rdm because I'm refuting your arguments, not making any points for you.

Whm and Rdm as subjob make you less durable, and in some cases they make you more self reliant, and in others less, depending on the target, reguardless, the tradeoff while you're in a position to actually tank in a group, is rarely worthwhile.

[saevel]

3) MAB II's lack of value - While this helps our Swipe and Lunge abilities a little, the effect isn't particularly huge. Additionally, with the JA delay, you're just slowing yourself down unless it's a last hit. Resolution will do more than Lunge, and thus generate more enmity in the short term if you're tanking. And it won't eat your runes, which if you're soloing, means you won't get eaten for your sudden lack of magic evasion. Mind you, these are small arguments; MAB II just plays such a small role and with the other two factors, /rdm is not a good subjob in most situations.

Umm what kind of crap gear do you have? I have Lunge doing 3.5~4.2K depending on targets MDB, your not hitting that with resolution unless your fighting old level 75 mobs due to reso's -15% attack penalty. The FC from /RDM is utterly useless as RUN gets 60% naturally and the other 20% from 3 pieces of gear. /WHM gives you Haste, Dia II and Cure IV along with -na, erase, reraise and aoe barspells for when your screwing around with friends doing random stuff. VP with 3x dark runes gives you about 200MP every 60s along with your natural refresh, RUN has a decent MP restoration when it needs it. So your down to 24 MAB from MAB II as the only real defining characteristic of /RDM. /RDM is pretty much useless to RUN because RUN was built as melee RDM v3, almost all the tools and tricks are shared.

RUN ain't going to "tank" sh!t for the most part, its really good at taking minimum damage from magic aoe's and providing that protection to the party. You have an emergency 90s "tank" mode you can switch into, it's not perfect and physical TP moves from dangerous NM's will still smack you around, but you can at least hold your old while the party reorganizes. Lunge / Swipe are both great damage provided your using an appropriate gear set, notably on monsters that are weak to magic damage.

After experimenting with different subs in party situations, I've found that /DRK seems to work the best, especially if you have a Crobaci +2. You'll still have your 6-hit (pretty much impossible to get a 5-hit on RUN without sacrificing a ton of multi-attack) while also gaining a solid 3/5 DPS boost and a couple more hate tools for when you do have to control the situation. Stun -> Flash -> Foil is a great way to piss something off. SE and LR also have a decent VE boost though cancel SE our and use LR for the extra damage hate, -15% defense shouldn't be making or breaking fights but the 15% additional attack / JA haste is definitely good to have.

Really didn't like what Hasso did to our recasts, even with 80% FC and gear + haste spell, it just wasn't very good. /WAR seems to be lacking and really only offers Provoke and Berserk. /NIN was for when I absolutely didn't want to get hit, but honestly too many things have aoe shadow stripping moves. Ichi was nearly instant cast though and Ni had a stupidly low recast.

[Damane]

If you say anything /whm you are essentially agreeing with me, since my position is that /whm or /rdm are the best tanking sub for run. So your /whm argument is null and void, as for the rest of your argument you picked out several different subjobs to compare them to the utility of /rdm, you are proving my argument for me. In case you missed it the first time, I'll state my position for you again /rdm or /whm are the best tanking subs for run, they offer more durability, survivability, and helps creates a more self reliant tank.

/whm and /rdm are horrible subs to tank as RUN, like seriously, they dont help you at all. if you seriously want to tank as RUN i would rather recommend /blu (if shadows and seigan dont help, cocoon is really godlike for raw damage taken and the other trais/spells you get arent that bad and offer more then /rdm or /whm), /nin or /sam. obviously if you go /nin i would opt for a ruinator setup

[Cljader1]

/whm and /rdm are horrible subs to tank as RUN, like seriously, they dont help you at all. if you seriously want to tank as RUN i would rather recommend /blu (if shadows and seigan dont help, cocoon is really godlike for raw damage taken and the other trais/spells you get arent that bad and offer more then /rdm or /whm), /nin or /sam. obviously if you go /nin i would opt for a ruinator setup

/blu is not a bad sub I use to use it alot, cocoon refueling and wild carrot are plenty much the only spells I found useful due to no native blu magic skill. However, the problem is wild carrot and refueling both of which are inferior to cure IV and Haste. /Rdm and /Whm allows you to have multiple cure timers with higher potency, /rdm allows better mp efficiency do to Convert, while /whm allows you to restore bigger chunks of Hp

[Vivivivi]

I did some more testing, these results are just from observations and not reviewing/comparing the battle log though so they're my opinion at best:
-the RDM sub was most useful in party situations where the enemy spammed debuffs, removing the fast cast buff (Kumhau). The native trait with some gear to enhance fast cast really helped get buffs back up.

I experimented with /nin and /sam and /war also, here's where I found them most useful:
/nin worked better than I would have expected situationally. For fun I tried to solo AA MR on very easy. I tried at first /RDM, and running out of MP was the biggest issue and was KO'd when I ran out of magic. Comparatively, when I tried /nin I didn't need to heal much at all aside from the occasional vivacious pulse. As long as I had the fast cast buff up I could get shadows back up without issues. If I had fast cast and battuata, I could get any spells off that I wanted every time. I still didn't win that fight, but it was mainly because I got charmed about 20 minutes in (MR's health was about a quarter left) and I didn't think to use tenebrae to resist charm, so I might try it again /nin. The main issue with /nin was that it's only really effective if the enemies don't use AOE spells or moves, so it's really a situational sub.

/sam - again, I didn't log a sample to compare, but it did seem like I got the most damage boost from this, and a noticeable gain in TP accumulation. I added seigan/third eye to my wards macro, then switched to hasso when my hp was out of the yellow and/or before weaponskills. However (at least with GS) I couldn't find a combination for self skillchains that combined would outdo just two back to back resolutions. I haven't looked into possibilities for sword, axe or GA yet though. But as far as /sam's usefulness... other than doing some simple soloing for job points or records of eminence, I couldn't find a practical use for this in a party situation. When I get a rare invite to join something on RUN, it's never as a DD or even a main tank, so I struggled to find a real use case for /sam in a group setting.

/war I did find helpful in certain situations, specifically in level 109 BC paper fights. Provoke was helpful for flipping the mob to target myself when wards were down. We tried a setup where the paladin supertanked all of the mobs, and then myself on rune fencer would pick off one of the mobs at a time and act as an off-tank, similar to how warrior is used in FF14 in many ways. I didn't do the kind of damage the 2 DRK's did in my group obviously, but I was (surprisingly) able to keep enmity on myself most of the time. Aggressor was also helpful to push my accuracy up just high enough when I saw I was missing a lot. Berserk was also handy when we got down to the final two enemies and the Paladin was tanking the targets we were fighting.

I haven't tried /blu yet, but after seeing some of the other comments I'm kind of curious to try it. I'm a little skeptical because of the low blue magic skill, but for self buffs it might not matter as much. I still haven't found a "go-to" subjob for rune fencer yet, but I'm leaning mostly on RDM at the moment for it's flexibility to cure others and keep hastes going all around. Macroing convert/vivacious pulse is a lifesaver as well.

[Damane]

/blu is not a bad sub I use to use it alot, cocoon refueling and wild carrot are plenty much the only spells I found useful due to no native blu magic skill. However, the problem is wild carrot and refueling both of which are inferior to cure IV and Haste. /Rdm and /Whm allows you to have multiple cure timers with higher potency, /rdm allows better mp efficiency do to Convert, while /whm allows you to restore bigger chunks of Hp

if you are tanking you are/should be in a party environment, so in that case you have a healer which makes /rdm or /whm even more poientless, otherwise its not tanking its just playing solo, which makes this conversation totally pointless. In any situation where you are tanking as a RUN with party environment and on anything harder then trash mobs, /blu or /sam or /nin, depending on the situation, everything else will hurt you more then help you.

[Cljader1]

if you are tanking you are/should be in a party environment, so in that case you have a healer which makes /rdm or /whm even more poientless, otherwise its not tanking its just playing solo, which makes this conversation totally pointless. In any situation where you are tanking as a RUN with party environment and on anything harder then trash mobs, /blu or /sam or /nin, depending on the situation, everything else will hurt you more then help you.

I highly disagree, /rdm and /whm IMO are the best subs for RUN, although I prefer /rdm for the convert stack "Convert, /wait 1, Vivacious Pulse, /wait 1, Cure IV" with this stack you can execute a Convert with 900 to 1000 HP coming back to you.

[Damane]

I highly disagree, /rdm and /whm IMO are the best subs for RUN, although I prefer /rdm for the convert stack "Convert, /wait 1, Vivacious Pulse, /wait 1, Cure IV" with this stack you can execute a Convert with 900 to 1000 HP coming back to you.

this has to be a joke right? you kind of lost all credibility in my eyes. I dont see a reason why this should ever be used as a tanking RUN in party environment (which is the point of haveing a tank). And if your answer is to gain more hate via cures, than its megafail combined with tranquil heart.