Please remove COP requirements on reforged relic and AF

[Demonjustin]

I was considering mentioning that as a possibilty to be honest, But I decided it would be best to tackle later. They did add an entirely new NPC for the Relic/AF Reforging, one would think if they wanted too, they could of detached her from AF Upgrades, but they didn't, they added her to the AF upgrade NPC likely for a reason.

But this is simply me assuming if they wasted time adding an entirely new NPC for the sole purpose of Reforging AF/Relic, they could have detached her from CoP if they so wanted.

I agree for sure, they did go out of their way to tie them together it seems, but in either case I just wanted to make the point that it is tied together with CoP only because of the NPC they tied her to, not by specifically tying the NPC in question to CoP itself.

I honestly assumed they tied the NPCs together because of all NPCs in the game, only 2 NPCs have ever touched our AF, Relic, or Empyrean gear, that would be the original Limbus NPC and the Trials of Magian Armor Moogle. I assume that lore wise, they thought it best to simply use her again, but this time rather than having her directly do it they made a new NPC. They have alluded to the fact that putting to much on 1 NPC is a bad idea, and the fact that she is so old could make it harder to add more things to her in the first place, so I think part of it might be that they wanted to use her and the lore reason she can have our gear upgraded, but at the same time didn't want to mess with the NPC herself, instead they created another one associated with her to do the job.

It's all hypothetical though.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I'll try not to hijack the thread, but...

I'd like to believe you have magical psychic powers but somethings tells me you don't, so your final divination there is naught but conjecture.

Perhaps, but I've never seen a Goblin Puppetmaster in Temenos, or a colibri in Apollyon.

but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis.

No Hydra Scholars (let alone beastman scholars) in Dynamis - Beaucedine, Dynamis - Tavnazia or in the Vana'diel Tribune. More damningly, there aren't even any Hydra Scholars in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes, after they'd already set the precedent of adding new JSE to old content and knew what was coming. And, of course, no relic weapons (made for the Hydra Corps) equipable by SCH.

Seriously, the only other times they've added new drops to old content were explicitly and exclusively in response to player behavior, such as when HNM drops were moved to BCNMs and Ex gear offered in their place.

Kludge is as kludge does. All available evidence points to it.

[Karbuncle]

I'll try not to hijack the thread, but...



Perhaps, but I've never seen a Goblin Puppetmaster in Temenos, or a colibri in Apollyon.



No Hydra Scholars (let alone beastman scholars) in Dynamis - Beaucedine, Dynamis - Tavnazia or in the Vana'diel Tribune. More damningly, there aren't even any Hydra Scholars in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes, after they'd already set the precedent of adding new JSE to old content and knew what was coming. And, of course, no relic weapons (made for the Hydra Corps) equipable by SCH.

Seriously, the only other times they've added new drops to old content were explicitly and exclusively in response to player behavior, such as when HNM drops were moved to BCNMs and Ex gear offered in their place.

Kludge is as kludge does. All available evidence points to it.

Most of the things you mentioned could be easily dismissed as "They had nothing to base them off of yet" when the game came out, and you can't rightly add a PUP Goblin to Temenos when PUP doesn't exist, and going back to add new jobs/mobs to an event is something they've never(or not in my memory) have done. Plus, there are always jobs that are limited to certain beastmen with Event fights being the only exception.

Trolls get PUP, Mamool got BLU, Lamia got COR, Quadavs have PLD, RNG, Yagudo have NIN, Summoner, Goblins have... IDK, Orcs have DRG... Theres always been job exclusive certain Beastmen, again, events being the only exception, or to a more accurate extent, Notorious Monsters.

I'm sure thats relevant somehow.

Admittedly SCH and DNC were added later in, but lore wise they existed in the WoTG-Era where Hydra existed. Had the jobs been conceptualized during the Dynamis era they would be Hydra Scholars and Hydra Dancers... Lore wise they fit, lack of those jobs existing at the time is the only reason they aren't in there, and likely the reason they were left out of later (S) missions to not cause confusion based on their lack of appearance in Dynamis. This example basically means the idea that there are no PUP Goblins in Temenos irrelevant because the job didn't exist at the time of the events inception, whereas if the jobs were around at that time, there likely would be.

There are a few SCH main mobs too, All-Seeing Onyx Eye is a SCH. Regardless, Lack of Hydra in dynamis I think I've explained above, the concept of the ideas had not existed, and this would not be the first time they've retconned something when adding a new job, It should be thought of no different now.

When it comes down to jobs and Enemies in events, what matters the most is Lore, the only thing that makes little to no sense is ToAU jobs in Dynamis, as COR, PUP, and BLU didn't really exist in the Three kingdoms during the crystal war, so theres no reason for their relic to come from there other than balance, especially since at one point I believe it was actually mentioned that the East purposefully avoided the conflict during the crystal war. So that at point is rather valid, even if just guess work.

With that said, There's another logical trail to follow. They likely didn't show SCH or DNC in the Hydra corps because had they been in them, players would question why there weren't any Hydra SCH or DNC in the Dynamis all this time. Either way, adding them or not, theres a retcon. By adding the Equipment to dynamis, they imply they existed there, but by not adding them to the Hydra Corps in the (S) Cutscenes, they imply they weren't a part of the expedition. In reality it contradicts itself, and there-in is the problem. The entirety of it is a contradiction, as is the problem with "Time travel", the only odd men out here are the ToAU Jobs and Dynamis equipment, which I've conceded is likely due to BALANCE as it has not basis in lore.

Regardless, as your first sentence says, this has nothing to due with the original argument.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Most of the things you mentioned could be easily dismissed as "They had nothing to base them off of yet" when the game came out,

The game launched with Yagudo SMNs and Orcish DRGs. Those jobs weren't accessible to players until Rise of the Zilart was released 11 months later.

Conversely, Limbus was released barely six months before the release of Treasures of Aht Urhgan (and one month after teaser shots, including the new jobs, were first shown to the public), and the lore surrounding it ties extremely heavily to the soon-to-be-released expansion. Nag'molada can't even bring himself to say "Temenos" ("Ou'Hpat Obelisk," anyone?) but "Aht Urhgan" and "Blue Mage" got name-dropped.

Plus, there are always jobs that are limited to certain beastmen with Event fights being the only exception.

Dynamis gave all four beastman tribes access to all then-current 15 jobs, giving us the likes of Orcish NINs and Yagudo DRGs (for which they don't even have the right weapons!).

and this would not be the first time they've retconned something when adding a new job

Example, please.

When it comes down to jobs and Enemies in events, what matters the most is Lore

The Hydra Corps was created specifically for the Battle of Xarcabard, so why are they in Dynamis - Tavnazia? Nevermind the fact that the Marquisette was destroyed before the Corps was created.

Lore went out the window where relic+1 is concerned even before new jobs were added. So why must relic+3 rely on the same mechanics?

[Karbuncle]

The game launched with Yagudo SMNs and Orcish DRGs. Those jobs weren't accessible to players until Rise of the Zilart was released 11 months later.

Which was because those jobs were already conceptualized, completed and ready for implementation(Or you're pulling my leg, but I don't remember these being in the Beta either). You'll have a hard time convincing me SCH and DNC were conceptualized during RoTZ Era. I mentioned "conceptualized" specifically because of this example, So I've already covered it and it changes nothing. As far as the Limbus and it being released 6 months before ToAU? With that all we can do is guess. It could be because they hadn't dropped COR or PUP yet, or that the jobs were still incomplete as teaser trailers hardly define finished products. While it does beg against the conceptualized idea and I admit that, It has other possible reasons.

Dynamis gave all four beastman tribes access to all then-current 15 jobs, giving us the likesof Orcish NINs and Yagudo DRGs (for which they don't even have the right weapons!).

Also mentioned.

Example, please.

SCH and DNC existing in Crystal Era, but not in Dynamis. If you wan't something before that, I can't think of any, but its only because its been 11 gd years and I don't feel like digging up every quest during the Pre-RoTZ or ToAU era, which I admit is my fault and I likely flubbed this example.

[quote]The Hydra Corps was created specifically for the Battle of Xarcabard, so why are they in Dynamis - Tavnazia? Nevermind the fact that the Marquisette was destroyed before the Corps was created.

Eh, True enough? Are you sure about that lore-wise? I swore they were simply a special task force between the three Kingdoms. Investigating/Combating Xarcabard was just their big thing.

Lore went out the window where relic+1 is concerned even before new jobs were added. So why must relic+3 rely on the same mechanics?

mmm, What? How did Lore go out the window with Relic+1. Serious question I must have missed it.

Regardless of all of this, You do have a point, SE has in a lot of cases tossed lore to the window, and SE has in a lot of cases worked on the size of lazy implementation over lore, so theres a lot of annoyances to work around and while I'm sure theres a good chance you are correct, theres a good chance you're wrong too, I just don't have the time or motivation to dig through 13 or some odd years of FFXI related quests and content to counter an off topic argument.

[Zarchery]

I'd appreciate it if you stayed on topic. I am not asking for any of these things. Please keep your criticism to the matter at hand. If other players request the things you are asking for, you are welcome to criticize those requests in the appropriate thread.

I'd appreciate it if you responded to my specific request or refrained from posting in this thread, thanks.

That is on topic. That was the exact topic. I am explaining why removing the CoP requirements (the topic of the thread) is a bad idea. Did you just not read the first paragraph of my post?

I'm not saying that anyone is making these requests. I'm saying that it is virtually inevitable that they will, based on historical observation. When Abyssea made levelling from 30 to cap easy, people requested that the level requirement be lowered to 1 so that it would be even easier. Whenever SE adds more inventory space, people demand even more. A guy last month asked that Dynamis currency requirements, which were made much easier (you can solo farm for currency and get much more in a week) due to the 2011 Dynamis revamp, be cut by 90%.

Here is the point, again.... The Chains of Promathia storyline is easy for anyone to complete solo. It is not a difficult hurdle, and most people seem to agree about that. However, some people do not. The game will never be easy enough to be acceptable to everyone. Furthermore, if you can't handle this, you'll never handle anything that actually takes time and you'll quit because of that instead. It's like a guy who flounders in pre-med during undergraduate courses is never going to be a good doctor.

[Zarchery]

It's not worth reading his posts. He just puts words in everyone's mouth and doesn't read anything anyone says. He wants to believe that all newbies just want to get rushed to end game, hate the game, and don't want to do anything. He wants to believe that so hard he will just keep posting it in every thread over and over and over. I've given up on him.

How's that ignore function working out for you?

You, very obviously want to rush to endgame. You already did, then complained about it.

[Mirage]

Now that I think about it, I don't think relic reforging should require CoP. AF should, though.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Which was because those jobs were already conceptualized, completed and ready for implementation

And I'm wildly speculating?

If you wan't something before that, I can't think of any

And yet you're confident enough to insist there were examples?

Are you sure about that lore-wise?

Go to Sauromugue Champaign [S] and ask Ramblix (Goblin Footprint) to reshow you the cutscene for "Another World." Discussing the destruction of Tavnazia and the introduction of the never-before-seen Hydra Corps (as a part of the coming Battle of Xarcabard) in the same cutscene.

mmm, What? How did Lore go out the window with Relic+1. Serious question I must have missed it

1. Relic +1 requires CoP Dynamis
2. CoP Dynamis features Hydra Corps
3. Lore states Hydra Corps should not be in CoP Dynamis, especially not Dynamis - Tavnazia
4. Ergo, lore got thrown out the window for relic +1

I just don't have the time or motivation to dig through 13 or some odd years of FFXI related quests and content to counter an off topic argument.

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

[Olor]

Now that I think about it, I don't think relic reforging should require CoP. AF should, though.

This is a compromise I'd be willing to accept.