Physical Levels of Newer Enemies?

[Sephiran]

I ask this just mainly out of curiosity as I'm looking into the effect of enemy levels on on block rate. As a result, I'm wondering what the physical level range of enemies we're fighting right now is and if it parallels content level in any way.

The following is a list from lowest to highest block rates of Ochain (Shield Skill 432 without Reprisal or Palisade) vs. various newer content:

1. Delve Bosses with their enhanced states/auras active
2. Delve Bosses with their enhanced states/auras inactive
3. Skirmish II enemies
4. Naakuals
5. "Fugacious" enemies inside Fractures
   (Fun Fact: The "dreadful energy" is actually the Delve Boss using their state-shifting move--Blistering Roar, Droning Whirlwind, or Carcharian Verve. You'll notice the effects that Fracture enemies receive from "dreadful energy" are granted to all enemies as well as the boss when those moves are used, even though dreadful energy stops occurring after all five NM's are disposed of. Don't believe me? Test it next time you do Dakuwaqa* and note when the normal enemies he spawns among get Ice Spikes.)
6. Ark Angels on the "difficult" setting

For obvious reasons, this ordering of this list surprises me. I would think that Ark Angels would be much meaner to me as far as my block rate goes. Any response on the subject from the devs would be greatly appreciated, assuming this won't give away too much information of course.



*As you know, Dakuwaqa is scripted to perform Carcharian Verve four times (as the first special move used after TP builds up, and when dropping below 75%, 50%, and 25% HP. However, as you all know, he can use Carcharian Verve any time below 25% HP. Only these four scripted uses cause the activation of the dreadful energy effect. The random, non-scripted uses below 25% HP (the one at 25% HP is scripted) do NOT activate the spikes.

[Martel]

What's the source for that list? I've yet to see any solid shield testing published on any of those mobs. Further more, I've never seen any thing that would prove, or even imply that delve naakuals auras increased the mobs actual levels. I also find it strange to see a block rate ranking by content with no actual block rate values.

[Sephiran]

What's the source for that list? I've yet to see any solid shield testing published on any of those mobs. Further more, I've never seen any thing that would prove, or even imply that delve naakuals auras increased the mobs actual levels. I also find it strange to see a block rate ranking by content with no actual block rate values.

These are relative values that I've observed and ordered over months (at least for the Delve bosses and Skirmish). Also, I believe you implied once that dreadful energy/auras have an immediate effect on block rate on BG. Thus, the idea shouldn't be foreign to you. I have noticed that block rate decreases slightly during dreadful energy/aura up times. It could indeed just be my rotten luck though.

[Martel]

Also, I believe you implied once that dreadful energy/auras have an immediate effect on block rate on BG. Thus, the idea shouldn't be foreign to you.

No, I've never stated or implied anything of the sort.

These are relative values that I've observed and ordered over months (at least for the Delve bosses and Skirmish). I have noticed that block rate decreases slightly during dreadful energy/aura up times. It could indeed just be my rotten luck though.

You did delve on PLD for months and never used reprisal?

Combat situations make for terrible shield testing. There are a lot of things that can affect dmg taken, and many of those can swing the dmg taken across the block/non-block gap. Cure skin, changes in PDT and defense from gear swaps, sentinel. Any of these can skew unblocked hits dmg to look like blocks.

Even if you relied on the block animation it's unreasonable to try to keep track of hits in a fight. And impossible with multiple mobs. Furthermore, mobs with aoe, or multi-hit melee do not trigger the block animation. so delve bosses are even more difficult to check block rate on.

To make solid statements on block rates, you need controlled testing, AND large, well recorded sample sizes. I'm talking 3k hits at least, and it's best to do multiple tests cause even at 3 k, your results can be +/- about 1.8% of the actual rate.

That being said, I have no real objection to your proposed block rate hierarchy(aside from the aura active = higher level bit, but I digress.) But I dislike seeing such things stated as fact with no hard data being posted to back it up.

Also, if you're interested in the effect of mob level on block rates, I refer you to these.

This post contains tests on Aegis, Ochain, and old Killedar(pre skill update, think of it as a normal size 3 shield.), ranging on mobs from lvl 106 to 109.

Here is a post that adds mob levels 110 and 11 to that spread, but only for size 3 shields so far.

There's also quite a bit more scattered around those two threads.

If you have an questions about said posts or the supporting data and tests methods feel free to ask.

[Sephiran]

What enemies did you use for taking the samples at each level?

[Martel]

106: cliffhanger toads in Marjami
107~109: Swollen Chigoes in Yorcia
110~111: Serac rabbits on woh gates.

There are lvl 112 and 113 mobs in Khamir drits, but I haven't got around to doing any testing on them yet.

[Sephiran]

What about the levels for Delve bosses and Ark Angels on VD? With those, my inquiry is concluded.

[Martel]

I haven't done any controlled tests on AAs or delve bosses. And I'm not likely to either. Find me a delve pt that wants get to the boss then sit there and let it hit me till we timeout for data collection. Hell, find me a delve group that even wants a PLD. And I really don't know how you'd figure out a delve bosses lvl. They don't give exp, and SoA mobs don't have lvl correction so there goes testing with flashy shot. I think about all I could do is get a block rate sample then compare it to parses of normal mobs. But I think I already outlined the difficulties surrounding testing block rate on those mobs.

[Sephiran]

Okay, you realize now that your initial attack on me was a bit off, right? Right now, my assertions on the physical levels of newer enemies are by no means devoid of merit. After you've fought something a thousand times, you begin to notice patterns in its behavior. That thing about dreadful energy effects activating on state-shifting moves isn't tested, it's something I realized over many times of smacking Dakuwaqa. Also, it's a faulty assumption that all applied situations are combat situations. You realize how many times I've had to hold Tojil because he either gets territorial or some one stands too close to the chamber--sometimes with Reprisal and sometimes without? A common sense observation doesn't always need to be parsed out, especially when you observe it over and over again. Noticed I never posted percentage estimates on the block rate, I only noted relative differences. The only relative difference that's negligible on that list is auras vs no auras. But again, this idea is nothing new. It was brought up on BGWiki a long time back. I could have sworn it was you, but it must have been another PLD enthusiast...

Maybe this post rings a bell.

You don't have a problem with my ordering, you have a problem with how I presented it.

[Martel]

If you'd followed the trail of quotes that post started from, then you'd know that it was about raged field NMs, before the 20 minute depop limit was implemented. NOT about fracture messages.

First post

Let it be known the Chapulli is horrible. Got it down to 12% before wiping but it was raged from like 50% so it was a right pain in the ass. Changing set-up to see if that helps.

We still had Acc issues with Hunters + Preludes + Feint + Geo Acc/EVA + Acc food. So god knows how you're supposed to get respectable acc on it.

Also only noticed because of this fight but you don't shield block raged mobs apparently! Or at leats the animation wasn't showing/reprisal proccing.

Next

You can it's just block rate is shit. I think I parried more than I blocked using aegis. Ochain made a noticeable difference however but yeah still far from 100% without reprisal/palisade

THEN, my post

I've noticed this on a couple delve NMs now as well. You go from cap/near capped block rate with Ochain, to no blocks at all and a lot of face rape.

There are 3 ways this could happen. and 2 of them are damn unlikely.

#1 the mob's attack have somehow become ranged attacks thus unblockable. This is not that case, as ranged atk don't interrupt casting. And I could hardly cast a damn thing on these NMs raged.

#2 Mob attacks became magical. No way. Same as above on interruptions, and you'd notice with Aegis.

or #3 The one mob stat known affect block rate, has dramatically increased. That would be mob level. So I think that this rage mode is literally the mob getting a massive boost to level. Now, I don't think that's all it is. But this should be what's affecting shield blocks.

Do you see any mention of fracture messages here? Or even fracture at all?

Specifically, I recall fighting Matamata and Kurma out in the field. And going from Very high block rates to hardly blocking at all and eating 400~ dmg melee hits in -50% PDT. This being when fights have dragged on for 20~ mins. Wasn't much fun.

Questioning the veracity of claims supported only by your (fallible human)memory of personal experiences constitutes an attack on you?

Your assertions have the same level of merit that any any other statement completely lacking any supporting documentation does. Which is to say, very little. Unrecorded observations of averages are inevitably unreliable.

Without recorded data, your ranking remains an opinion. Not fact. If all you wanted to do was share your opinion. Well, you've done so. And with very little(read, 0) reaction or interest from anyone but me.

Also, the only reason I don't object to the order of said ranking is because I don't have any data that directly contradicts it. It appears to be, mostly, a set of reasonable assumptions.