I think I'm finished; a new player's final thoughts

[Bukota]

Also I'm not sure why I'm suddenly the synonyms of terrible group of player unwilling to change and bash against every noob. Only opinion I ever disagree in entire discussion is killing the long term goal(which doesn't affect new players at all) and pop-up window + !(which doesn't exist in every RPG title, it's not needed in RPG games). Rest are against flaws and holes in opinion that's irrelevant to the topic too.

I apologize for singling you out. Having re-read your posts, at least you chose the high road versus some of the more cruel comments like "go play WoW" that seem to be cropping up in these threads.

And while I totally agree that you have the right to come here and voice your opinion, I think the context of this discussion has become far too focused on specific "solutions" that really don't solve the core problem.

If I may elaborate:

I'm asking the question "what would it take for me to approach my old friends who quit and ask them to re-join without laughing in my face?"

Well...

Travel times have always been a problem for most friends who quit. The few times we could both get on to play together would be absorbed by the meaningless minutae of getting to the same place at the same time with the right jobs.

Home point warps are an example of something the dev team has implemented to show that they empathize with this concern.

But this is merely an example.

It is one solution to a myriad of problems.

There are still overarching issues with the design of the game.

Let me give you one example. "New", "Fun", AND "Rewarding" content is added on a regular basis currently. But it is all designed for level 99 players in iLvL gear.

I'm not necessarily opposed to that, but consider these hypothetical friends I want to invite to the game.

They hear about some of this great content like what a Wildkeeper Reive is and can't wait to try it.

There's just one problem.

They need to do LB 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9; build fame for various quests; max gobbie bag to carry gear; level up to 99 along this process; simultaneously advance through missions to meet various requirements; unlock all sorts of access through wild means; level things up such as automatons and skills...

Ahhh just eff it...I'm not interested in coming back.

A lot of those things are just part of the game and need to be accepted, don't get me wrong. Skilling up has always been a core component of the game, and should continue to be. The same goes for automaton skills and the like.

But adding a key item to resolve needing 3 people to open a door in Garliage, and failing to do the same for the Necropolis is just one of many examples where the dev team for this game just don't get it.

See the bug report I posted yesterday for another example.

You admit in version update notes that you know a simple animation is broken and needs to be fixed, and then you just never do anything about it.

Now

If you don't believe SE is partially attuned to these facts, hmmm...

I mean Trust and RoE are perfect examples of them generating new content that scales well across a multitude of levels.

Moblin Maze Mongers was never a terribly popular event, and had flaws due to congestion, but it was a GREAT event in terms of scalability. With MMM and level sync, I could have my level 30 friend who rejoined the game play with my existing level 75 party.

In that regard it was a huge success. But more importantly proves my point that it is very possible to develop content that encourages cooperation between the many different strata of players in this game.

But it requires those 3 magical components: "Novelty", "Fun", and "Rewards."

So no, I'm not saying that I think adding map markers or reducing bloodpact timers will solve my major grievances.

But the measurably declining server populations should be a wake up call for everyone that the ship needs to be righted.

[Afania]

I apologize for singling you out. Having re-read your posts, at least you chose the high road versus some of the more cruel comments like "go play WoW" that seem to be cropping up in these threads.

"Go play WoW" isn't exactly wrong though, no game can please everyone, and not every direction change can please everyone either. If some players are unwilling to do all the LB/bag quests or long walk to another city, what else you gonna do? Get rid of all those requirement? When I was new I enjoyed all the hardwork to get fame/bag/LB quests done, getting lost in the dungeons or long walk to another city, it's a lot of work, but also feel like living in another world instead of kill easy quest mobs in a small game world and reach max lv. I'd feel sad if new player won't be able to experience such aspect again, I mean I'd be sad if I can't experience all those as a new player starting in 2010 or after. I don't even think this game would be that appealing if you have to skip every newb process and jump straight to the endgame.

Just because some player may want to jump straight to the endgame, doesn't mean everyone want the same way. I started EQ fairly recently, and I was kinda sad that I can no longer experience how EQ originally was.

Who can determine what's right game direction, who can determine what's wrong? Sub number? Player's happiness? And who has right to claim their happiness is the right direction?

There are specific aspects I truely enjoy in FFXI, I don't want to see it go away, not just for my own taste, but maybe out there there's someone else also enjoy the same thing, wanting to start FFXI as a new player, looking for same experience I had that no longer exists. If another player wants to play WoW, which is the better solution? Turn FFXI into WoW to please them, or tell them to play WoW so FFXI can stay FFXI, and potential new players that want to play real FFXI can still get a chance?

As I said before, changes are fine, as long as FFXI is still FFXI, that doesn't mean every changes are necessary good decision. And that doesn't make whoever defending for FFXI direction are stubborn/hating new players/elitist/wanting others to suffer either.

I know the player base gets smaller, I don't think any MMORPG can keep player forever, I'm not denying the change. But there are something that's unique to FFXI that I loved, that I'll continue to defend for it. If someone else doesn't like FFXI being FFXI, besides "go to WoW", what else do you want me to say?

I don't want others to "suffer" when they play a game, if they feel like they're "suffering" for fame/LB/quests/gobbie bag/walk, my suggestion is to go away. However, if dev turn FFXI into something else by removing everything, those who enjoy doing hard work in another world won't have many choice left on the market. Now that's real suffering for those wanted hardcore gameplay. Like how I was sad that I no longer get to enjoy real EQ.

[Bukota]

"

I know the player base gets smaller, I don't think any MMORPG can keep player forever, I'm not denying the change. But there are something that's unique to FFXI that I loved, that I'll continue to defend for it. If someone else doesn't like FFXI being FFXI, besides "go to WoW", what else do you want me to say?

I'm curious what you'd say to someone who came FROM WoW to try "your" game.

Here is a game that came out within a year of FFXI.

Examine the graph closely:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...2LHxJL0cCw5ukw

The reason why the game continues to add players year after year is a topic too exhaustive for this discussion.

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

Brilliant.

[Afania]

I'm curious what you'd say to someone who came FROM WoW to try "your" game.

Here is a game that came out within a year of FFXI.

Examine the graph closely:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...2LHxJL0cCw5ukw

The reason why the game continues to add players year after year is a topic too exhaustive for this discussion.

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

Brilliant.

The reason why EVE online can retain players, is because EVE online is sandbox MMORPG, and there aren't enough sandbox RPG competition on the market. Also by nature, sandbox gameplay are not just "beat the content then quit" kind of game. Showing a graph of a sandbox MMO doesn't really show anything, because FFXI is themepark and it's not even same genre.


Theme park has bigger market, but every title are competing against one million F2P titles coming out every year, hundred and hundred of asian titles pop every year too. Pretty much any new theme park MMO can't retain sub because they're competing against one million other titles AND by the nature of gameplay, players would play through their content and quit.

FFXI is just like any theme park MMO, but with different flavor. It's directly competing against games like WoW/FFXIV, there isn't much you can do if the sub numbers drop.

[Bukota]

The reason why EVE online can retain players, is because EVE online is sandbox MMORPG, and there aren't enough sandbox RPG competition on the market. Also by nature, sandbox gameplay are not just "beat the content then quit" kind of game. Showing a graph of a sandbox MMO doesn't really show anything, because FFXI is themepark and it's not even same genre.


Theme park has bigger market, but every title are competiting against one million F2P titles coming out every year, hundred and hundred of asian titles pop every year too. Pretty much any new theme park MMO can't retain sub because they're competiting against one million other titles AND by the nature of gameplay, players would play through their content and quit.

FFXI is just like any theme park MMO, but with different flavor. It's directly competing against games like WoW/FFXIV, there isn't much you can do if the sub numbers drop.

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

[Bukota]

It's really much more simple than you're making it.

They have a professional, highly skilled, and steadfast development team that keeps the game updated.

They do so by heavily interacting with the community on important decisions. See Council of Stellar Management for how that is properly done.

They've also never let fear of change get in the way of making their game better.

It has taken courage in the past, and they've made mistakes. But the effort is what counts when you are selling the relationship of service provider, which is what MMOs are really about.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Suffice it to say, the graphics engine has been redone on two separate occassions.

In the mean time, FFXI got "Playstation Limitations."

I imagine an engine overhaul would be their next long-term project when (read "if") they ever finish the new PC UI.

[Bukota]

I imagine an engine overhaul would be their next long-term project when (read "if") they ever finish the new PC UI.

They would need evidence that their current efforts and investment could really produce a meaningful uptick in subscribership.

It would be so much easier to just slowly fade into obscurity.

It is at least refreshing to see that Matsui appears determined to do anything but that.

It'd be nice to be a fly on the wall.

[Demonjustin]

I don't want anything that reminded me I'm playing a game. This is a roleplaying game(aka life simulator/virtual world), I want game design that would create an illusion that I'm not playing a game.

Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience. If you honestly think there is anything immersive about the fact that the grand overwhelming majority of players will always turn to wiki just to find out where to go, then your sense of immersion in games is laughable. An immersive game keeps you playing it, keeps you enthralled and focused on it rather than forcing you out of it, any game that gives you so little direction that you must leave the game and look elsewhere for information on what to do is not an immersive game but rather the exact opposite, its a game constantly reminding you that is just what it is, a game, because it constantly pulls you from the experience just to look up what comes next in your line of tasks you have to do that the game simply did not explain.

Every MMO would die at one point of time, new player friendly or not, no MMO can retain player forever. What's your point?

I suppose since the game can not live forever and it will die eventually no matter what we do or say, we may as well not even try to improve the experience for new players trying to come to the game and enjoy it, rather, we should just leave it as it is even if it dies sooner rather than later as a result. That doesn't sound stupid at all.

There are specific aspects I truly enjoy in FFXI, I don't want to see it go away, not just for my own taste, but maybe out there there's someone else also enjoy the same thing, wanting to start FFXI as a new player, looking for same experience I had that no longer exists. If another player wants to play WoW, which is the better solution? Turn FFXI into WoW to please them, or tell them to play WoW so FFXI can stay FFXI, and potential new players that want to play real FFXI can still get a chance?

What if you are someone like me? Someone who has no care for WoW or its gameplay style yet likes the FFXI combat, yet at the same time hates the poor effort/reward, time sinks, and overall vague attitude of FFXI and the majority of its quests, missions, and overall content, but likes some quality of life aspects that games like WoW have that I find make a game not only more accessible, but more enjoyable. What if someone like me wants a middle ground? Are we simply screwed and left with either option A or option B, neither of which we will truly be satisfied with?

As I said before, changes are fine, as long as FFXI is still FFXI, that doesn't mean every changes are necessary good decision. And that doesn't make whoever defending for FFXI direction are stubborn/hating new players/elitist/wanting others to suffer either.

This is a truly meaningless thing to say, changes are ok, but FFXI has to say FFXI, which literally has no meaning to anyone but you because only you are determining what you think makes FFXI unique and great. So saying this is really can mean nothing to me, because you see, to me FFXI is what it is because of the community, the friends I have, the combat, the Final Fantasy name, and its story, none of which in any way would be affected detrimentally via changes to the quest system, certain quests or routes of obtaining certain items such as Mythics, or making this game more accessible to newer or returning players by making it more understandable and much less wiki-reliant. In fact, I would see a much greater benefit from it, I have had friends in the past either quit, or never even start with the game due to the amount of things that must be done in order to reach a level where they would find the game actually enjoyable.

For a few instances, my friend CJ who got me into FFXI used to play more than I ever did, he had an awesome time on the game, but when he got a job that tied down his time he was unable to play as much and thus, fell behind, due to the high time requirement everything had at the time he simply quit after a bit. Nowadays CJ has expressed some want to return, or that he would not mind returning, but the fact that he always had to look things up constantly on wiki, that everything is still so time taking, and that everyone is so far ahead, acts as nothing more than a deterrent from his return, after all, the first month of his coming back would be spent doing nothing more than relearning that which he has forgotten and trying to reintegrate himself into the content.

We can argue all day what makes FFXI what it is, different from most games, but in the end thats all you and I will ever argue about it seems, a matter of what things actually are, because we see things massively different. From what I understand it seems as though I see this as a game meant for enjoyment, while you see it as a second life, I see Mythics taking a month of constant work to make as a long term goal, you see 3 months of near constant work a long term goal and anything less would be removing said long term goals, I see a quest !, marker, or menu system as beneficial and a way to remove the need to have wiki up at all times, you find it as something that destroys what would be an immersive experience. In the end, the world you live in and the FFXI you play seems vastly different to my own.

I don't want others to "suffer" when they play a game, if they feel like they're "suffering" for fame/LB/quests/gobbie bag/walk, my suggestion is to go away. However, if dev turn FFXI into something else by removing everything, those who enjoy doing hard work in another world won't have many choice left on the market. Now that's real suffering for those wanted hardcore gameplay. Like how I was sad that I no longer get to enjoy real EQ.

In that respect someone like myself must also be suffering in the same way but right now rather than in a hypothetical scenario since as I explained this game does not meet what expectations I have for a game, and is in no way perfect, while many changes I want go against your views on what makes FFXI what it is, and I can find no game that caters to what I am looking for in a game exactly, the best 2 options seem to be this, and WoW, and as a result I go with the lesser of 2 evils which is this. So if it is suffering to be without the ability to find a game that meets exactly what you are looking for, I am already there, and if it is suffering to play a game, try to enjoy it, but know that it isn't what you truly want, while also having no way to change it to be more similar to what you do want, then I am experiencing that as well.

[detlef]

Yes, as I said, looking at wiki every 2~3 minutes must be very immersive for people, while the !s and markers on your map would be oh so destructive to that immersive experience. If you honestly think there is anything immersive about the fact that the grand overwhelming majority of players will always turn to wiki just to find out where to go, then your sense of immersion in games is laughable. An immersive game keeps you playing it, keeps you enthralled and focused on it rather than forcing you out of it, any game that gives you so little direction that you must leave the game and look elsewhere for information on what to do is not an immersive game but rather the exact opposite, its a game constantly reminding you that is just what it is, a game, because it constantly pulls you from the experience just to look up what comes next in your line of tasks you have to do that the game simply did not explain.

!'s seem like they would be a bitch to program, and I still think that using map markers would be unwieldy and difficult. I love what they've done with the Quality of Life stuff lately, but since there's already a workaround for quest issues (online resources), I'd much rather they focus on other things rather than wait a year or three while they re-jigger every single quest/mission npc in the game.