Delve fights

[Feary]

delve boss AoEs are nowhere near as powerfull as legion AoEs were back then... seriously. Melees can survive them if they have equipment sets for them or their whms do their jobs with eraseing def down. Yes they are not preferable to deal with, but they are in no way NOT survivable like Legion AoE moves were. They are managable.

lol. agreed. Damane Legion is/was more difficult then delve at release and would win you regardless of how far were progress or how well of player you were.

delve is about gimmicks and learning how to solve them. ie. matamata dakuwaqa mastop etc. dealing and not dealing types of damage at certain times.. positioning and learning how to cure effectively. etc

legion was/is about your alliance over powering large nms in succession who could one shot you at any tp move. there is no gimmick there just stun what you can and kill the best way you know how. among many other things.

of course now it may not be that hard and easier to manage these days because we have must higher dps and much more defensive gear. ie. DEF magic evasion and pdt.

so please dont compare content when the only thing similar is that seem difficult and unattainable to you.
they are two different two beasts.

Actually I find that it shows more that you simply have friends in high places. Each person is but one part of an 18 man alliance and there are perfectly competent people out there that either have a hard time finding a group to run with at all and/or are forced to join pugs that usually fail because whoever organized it doesn't really know what to do and not necessarily because oneself was the reason for faliure.

Not having Oats or w/e super power weapon is hot at any given time isn't an indication that a player is bad.

that isnt true. the high places in this game are arbitrary. you willing to be open minded or not.

from my personal situation i was in a linkshell full of real elitist douches, they had been play and winning endgame content since hnm days of serket and sky. i mean real selfish who didnt help anyone and judged everything that wasnt themselves. who would fight and argue over the most smallest things. leadership also had standards that were outdated by at least 5 years. a real mess. could we kill delve content if members would work together and not for themselves. yes. however that was not going to happen.

looking from the outside looking in yeah you can say i knew high ppl in high places but it didnt matter. its about leadership of all, attitude and willingness to learn.

in the linkshell it us 8months to get 3 zone wins. the linkshell then folded that day and ppl moved on.

i took the ppl who were the linkshell who generally sucked or were considered the bad eggs in the linkshell and i worked with them and showed them how to win at delve.

now we beat all 3 nms at least 3 times a week. is it perfect? no. do we have the best of the best. no. the difference is i believe in the players no matter how bad them seems and challenge them to do/be better. i also translated what they needed to do and what was expected of them. once they knew what to gear they were missing and why and how to kill the nms. we went out and learned the zone by trial and error. it took 3 months to win all 3 nm on a consistent basis because we needed more ppl and need to learn too. however, we had much more sucess with ppl who were at very best mediocre.

so when say to you secondplanet trumpy etc. delve is not that hard. i mean it. and im not saying out of my ass.

maybe its your servers? i dont know. i hear all the time how pug fail. i mean i pick ppl up all the time when needed. i dont have that much of an issue with them and if so their are ways to compensate.

[Xantavia]

I've joined quite a bit of fail delve pt just to see how they fail, 95% of PUG delve fail because leader's delve leading skill is terrible. I can usually tell whether this PUG is gonna fail or not before we even start just by observing how leaders lead their PUG and how they interact with their members.

This is the other part of the problem people have with getting wins. Somebody without the gear can't get in a group, and it seems that a common response is to build your own group. So then you have people with no first-hand experience of the event trying to coordinate 18 people. It is an ugly cycle that relies on the playerbase to break out of by taking a chance on bringing a newer player with them.

[Feary]

This is the other part of the problem people have with getting wins. Somebody without the gear can't get in a group, and it seems that a common response is to build your own group. So then you have people with no first-hand experience of the event trying to coordinate 18 people. It is an ugly cycle that relies on the playerbase to break out of by taking a chance on bringing a newer player with them.

if you know how to play the game i.e play your job while manipulating game mechanics and simiple reading of bgwiki would suffice. you dont need first hand experience to know where to stand. how to change to pdt gear, use curaga 2-3 and accession, or even stun.

coordinating 18ppl do their jobs niche isnt hard or doesnt takes much preparation. it ppl who know how to play thier game and ppl who are patient effort to teach/learn. only first being able to identify what you are doing wrong and right. to start with.

some times that even means going back to the drawing board on your job(s) and macros.

[Xantavia]

if you know how to play the game i.e play your job while manipulating game mechanics and simiple reading of bgwiki would suffice. you dont need first hand experience to know where to stand. how to change to pdt gear, use curaga 2-3 and accession, or even stun.

This is a starting point for me, but personally reading any strategies isn't nearly as effective as just getting in there and doing it. I have always learned better once I can get my hands dirty, no matter what it is, in a game or out of it. A guide might say "When X happens, do Y". I know that is what I should do, it is what I most likely will do, but until I put it into practice it won't be real yet.

I have done almost no 18-man content so it might be a big difference from a 6 man battle. You mention doing your niche job correctly, but most co-ordinated battlefields I've done (mostly as blu) I'm always looking out for doing damage, trying to stun any nasty moves, and provide additional healing when needed.

[Trumpy]

Your mentioning of using curagas reminds me of one of the fail groups i went with. It was specifically mentioned several times that whm will need to use curagas for a a particular NM and every whm was like ok. it was also mentioned that this or that NM has an aura of paralyze or whatever and everyone is like ok. But yet nearly every time there is at least 1 DD constantly askin for paralyna, or the one run 2 of the WHM didnt use curagas at all, which was amazing cause even jsut before we pulled it it was mentioned like 3 times. Even during the fight whm mentioned by name were told they should curaga and they still wouldnt. Sometimes i feel like people listen to the planning or strats and then just refuse and wonder why the fuck they cant ever win these things. We beat the nm but it wasted a ton of time and a few people died, it was such a fail when it could have been easy.

And thats just an example from delve, I have seen this same crap else where and its jsut ridiculous.

[Afania]

I have been seeing a few people lately that after a fail, it becomes the blame game and then they say, "I rather solo stun then work with that sch again!" and this is after 1 fail. not even giving them the chance to be better and improve. Luckily none of these runs went past the fail so there was no chance to redo but seems kind of like a bad attitude. Or they just get really super harsh on the person and its like "hey man we jsut spent 5 hours waiting for another sch please stop tryin to anger him into leaving." Its all about tact and learning not jsut throw away the problems.

This is the other part of the problem people have with getting wins. Somebody without the gear can't get in a group, and it seems that a common response is to build your own group. So then you have people with no first-hand experience of the event trying to coordinate 18 people. It is an ugly cycle that relies on the playerbase to break out of by taking a chance on bringing a newer player with them.

As I said before, leadership skills. Of course 18 players with no previous experience and an inexperience leader has very high chance to fail. Most of the groups who cleared delve before skill update wiped several times too.

The difference is that, successful group has trust and usually are more willing to tolerate the mistakes, and avg PUG usually has no trust nor buy-in, if 1 person fail then it'd become a blame game.

I've been building event groups for years since VW, legion, delve, NNI, new salvage and now AA VD, and been doing research about how to do successful event. I've noticed whether a group has trust or not affects performance the most, more than gear/skill level of each indiviual member. A group with no trust but perfect gear in every slot has lower success rate because it'd become a blame game if 1 person makes mistake, with a very intentse party atmosphere, in such environment ppl tend to make mistake more easily.

On the other hand, a group of trusted friends can tolerate the mistake more, play in a more relaxed mood and make less mistakes. Even if their gear/skill are subpar, they tend to have higher performance.

Thus good leadership skill include better communication and ability to build trust between each members.

A lot of LS cleared delve before skill update failed many times, made silly mistakes, tried over and over again. But LS like this usually trust each member's ability, thus they can gain experience together and get clear. Getting clear is really just the matter of finding 17 ppl wanting to do this together, not afraid of failing, tolerate each other's mistakes and eventually you'd get better performance in delve event.

And it requires good leadership skill to build a group like this, IMO.

Remember, world first/server firsts groups also start with 0 experience. No matter how inexperienced you are, you can't be less experienced than world first/server first groups. At least you have a guide.

[Secondplanet]

if you know how to play the game i.e play your job while manipulating game mechanics and simiple reading of bgwiki would suffice. you dont need first hand experience to know where to stand. how to change to pdt gear, use curaga 2-3 and accession, or even stun.

coordinating 18ppl do their jobs niche isnt hard or doesnt takes much preparation. it ppl who know how to play thier game and ppl who are patient effort to teach/learn. only first being able to identify what you are doing wrong and right. to start with.

some times that even means going back to the drawing board on your job(s) and macros.

Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

[Damane]

Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

you do know protectra V has a fixed duration... 30 min, the only way it wore off before 30 min is if it got dispelled ¬.¬. Your protectra V line makes no sense

[Renaissance2K]

I haven't messed around with Delve as much as some people in this thread, but I think chemistry between the leader and the other people in the alliance is probably the biggest hurdle to be overcome with Delve. The fights seemed designed to mess specifically with people that just want to load up on buffs and punch the thing in the face until it dies. What a winning alliance needs is a leader that's willing to go over the fight in a reasonable amount of detail, coupled with players that are willing to do a little impromptu research to fill in the gaps.

So, if you decide to organize a run, and the only strategy or advice you offer to the group is "melees use sushi" and "BLU should equip Warm-Up," then you shouldn't be surprised when things don't go very well.

In terms of mechanics, as somebody with no clears and therefore no big items, the only thing I'd like to see changed with the Delve system is some incentive to kill the bosses more than once. It's easy enough to farm Plasm once you have the key items, especially now with Records of Eminence, but right now, it's particularly difficult to get a run going if you missed out on the initial rush when Adoulin was released.

[Feary]

This is a starting point for me, but personally reading any strategies isn't nearly as effective as just getting in there and doing it. I have always learned better once I can get my hands dirty, no matter what it is, in a game or out of it. A guide might say "When X happens, do Y". I know that is what I should do, it is what I most likely will do, but until I put it into practice it won't be real yet.

I have done almost no 18-man content so it might be a big difference from a 6 man battle. You mention doing your niche job correctly, but most co-ordinated battlefields I've done (mostly as blu) I'm always looking out for doing damage, trying to stun any nasty moves, and provide additional healing when needed.

um yes you can understand from reading, stop selling yourself short and being ok with mediocrity. you cant be that dense. of course doing it over and over will get rid of the jitters and nerves. however to say you cant follow guide without trying it is poppycock. ppl do it every day on every fight. in a 6 12 or 18 man group if someone tells you what the strat is you should know how your job fits in that strat. if anything is unclear you ask and you get feedback after.

as a blu who is doing their research, you would know how importance of Absolute terror and setting DD job traits in delve. Your niche is in Bee and shark zones.

knowing that stunning isnt your job. keeping yourself alive and helping maybe remove status ailments is a bonus. however at the end of the day you are there to Do Damage with requiescat and terrorize NMs like scorpion, Mastop, etc.

Your mentioning of using curagas reminds me of one of the fail groups i went with. It was specifically mentioned several times that whm will need to use curagas for a a particular NM and every whm was like ok. it was also mentioned that this or that NM has an aura of paralyze or whatever and everyone is like ok. But yet nearly every time there is at least 1 DD constantly askin for paralyna, or the one run 2 of the WHM didnt use curagas at all, which was amazing cause even jsut before we pulled it it was mentioned like 3 times. Even during the fight whm mentioned by name were told they should curaga and they still wouldnt. Sometimes i feel like people listen to the planning or strats and then just refuse and wonder why the fuck they cant ever win these things. We beat the nm but it wasted a ton of time and a few people died, it was such a fail when it could have been easy.

And thats just an example from delve, I have seen this same crap else where and its jsut ridiculous.

Again that is just bad selection of players. if the whm doesnt want to listen to leadership then that is a problem and he needs to go. if DDs dont have remedies and the whm cant accession/paralyna/stona on tojil runs then they needs step up or go. Stop bitching and learn how to trust and play with each other. also learn how to ignore ppl, PUG will bitch about everything they think is remotely right. which i fine to be dumb and if they are in my group i tell them to in the most kindly of /tells that that is not tolerated. the alliance is never going to be perfect players. ppl are going miss shit. get over it. as a leader you need to convey what CANNOT BE Missed and what has to be done.

Being a good leader is totally different to getting a win, I knew someone who was amazing at leading Dynamis and when he left the game and came back years later he rebuilt the linkshell and all was good, except the core skills of the game are lost from people no longer leveling their jobs the old fashion way and learning the jobs, Blackmages didn't know what a timed nuke was, there was a war who didn't know he had provoke, whitemages missing spells and all around the player base's skill was replaced with gear to make up for it. You can be the best leader in the game but if the people your leading don't know their own jobs there isn't much to do at this point.
When i went with the group of all summoners one person syphoned for less then 200mp. I've seen whitemages who cast protectra V and it only lasted half a fight. Its not the leadership that should be in question with this situation at times, its the player base who needs to be dragged out to Cape Terrigan and get the abyssea beaten out of them.

What you also arent getting is a good leader would of kicked those idiots until they knew what was up from down. why would any leader include players who are blatantly detrimental to the alliance?

I ran dynamis myself, and the only thing you can take and apply to delve are leadership skills. Those skills are basically what afania said.

i mean Secondplanet, seriously these are the experiences that lead you to conclude S.E content is too hard and needs to be eased?

also

you do know protectra V has a fixed duration... 30 min, the only way it wore off before 30 min is if it got dispelled ¬.¬. Your protectra V line makes no sense