Cait Sith / Atomos

[Zeargi]

FACT: Carbuncle is not manipulating anyone. Carbuncle asks Summoners to help him on his quest. Manipulating would require him misleading summoners and it being proven in the story.
Theory: Carbuncle is evil or has partially evil intent
The problem I have with the theory that Carbuncle is in some way even partially evil, is there is nothing to support it. Just because he wants to awaken the sleeping gods does not make ill intent. Naivety maybe, but not evil. He states in Waking the Beast, he had no intention of the humanity's will being bent by the Celestial Avatars. He does think the world needs to be restored to it's true form (Source: The Moonlit Path quest). We have no idea what the true form of Vana'diel is. There is no proof that waking the celestial avatars is equivalent to opening the Gate of the Gods, ending Vana'diel. If that were true, then the Zilart would have just tried to awaken them and Carbuncle would have went to the Zilart to begin with and wouldn't have helped stop the Gate of the Gods to be opened.

Wait! Hold up there, I wanted to ask you...! I thought you could answer a question or two... You know, I've been thinking about this whole thing. How Carbuncle's got you whisper collecting... I wonder if this isn't just some grand farce to slowly steal power from the avatars? This tale has its share of twists, turns, and bends! I'm definitely curious to see how it ends!

Carbuncle: Infuse me with the energy...

Carbuncle: !?

Ifrit: False god.
You mar the name of the true deities.

Carbuncle: Ifrit!?

Carbuncle: How could this be?
The old gods were not yet meant to awaken!

Leviathan: We allow the divided god to be filled with our power.

Garuda: But the false god will never have our strength.

Shiva: Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish...

Titan: Our energy will return to us.
No longer shall it serve the trickster.

Ramuh: Return to the true gods!

Carbuncle: It's hopeless...
There's only one thing left for me to do.
Defeat the summoner!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>!
You cannot control them!
I'm sorry, but their connection to this world must be severed!

Carbuncle tried to kill you, if he was so worried... he should have tried to HELP you and defeat the manifestations.

Theory: Terrestial Avatars have nothing to do with Altana and were created by happenstance.
The problem I have with the theory that the Terrestial Avatars have no role and simply commonplace animals back then is where are the rest of the overpowered avatar animals? Why are there only 5? Why are they the only ones concerned about saving Vana'diel? Why are the roles of the Terrestial Avatar's so instrumental in the grand design? Why did Altana even give them powers if all animals aren't created with that much power? It leaves too many unanswered questions to support that theory for me.

Because there are only 5 Mothercrystals. The reason is that the Deities need a median to manifest in. This is a Fact! Even in the tribune when they talk about the Celestial Avatars merging with something else. You can also see this in ToAU with the Iron Colossus and The Dark Rider. The reason I believe the 5 terrestrial avatars are part of Promathia's soul is that:
He's referred to as the 'Twilight God,' not the God of Darkness, Not the God of Evil, the God of Twilight. Which means he is the inbetween of Dusk and Dawn. He also houses the lights of the Races, (Which could be the link to Carbuncle) He is the reason for the empty which inflicts eternal slumber (Diabolos). He is proven to become Shinryu, the God Dragon (Bahamut), Again He's the God of Twilight, so he also verges on the Night (Fenrir.) He can also be re-born (Phoenix). In Abyssea, you not once come across Bahamut, who commands All other Greater Dragons. Where is he? He already said that he'd plan to kill everyone if you failed. But magically, people are still alive, and there are still hordes of Greater Dragons roaming around. Where's Fenrir, He still would honor his pact, and have defended Windurst. Neither of these Avatars would have simple "Peaced out." Both are Prideful, and would have fought.

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>...
The sleeping gods do not exist to lead you... They exist to lead a lost god...
My friends and I are here for you...for mortals...

The Zilarts most like couldn't wake the Sleeping Gods, because they had no means to enter the crystals. You can't destroy the crystals from the outside. Drawing on the power will eventually wake that God. Proof: Odin. His Protocrystal was below Xarcabard, but he was Fully awake when someone summoned him as the Dark Rider to fight the Fully Awaken Alexander, but now there's no longer a Protocrystal there.

[Rwolf]

Leepe-Hoppe is doing what you are doing, hypothesizing. That is not fact.

Regarding the quote to Waking the Beast. You are only quoting/bolding a small segment of that entire cutscene. Of course the Celestial avatars feel more righteous than the Terrestial Avatars and humanity. If you read how each of them came into being Celestial avatars (Vana'diel Tribune). They are all pretty jaded from the world they left behind. That is not proof that Carbuncle is evil or has evil intent. Just because he needs the power of Celestial Avatars doesn't mean he shares their vision. He is simply a pragmatist. He knows their power will resurrect Fenrir and does it. He believes it will help humanity. You quoted it yourself.

The sleeping gods do not exist to lead you... They exist to lead a lost god...
My friends and I are here for you...for mortals...

Nor is it proof that they are going to open the Gate of the Gods just because Shiva said "Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish..."

Carbuncle tried to kill you, if he was so worried... he should have tried to HELP you and defeat the manifestations.

Carbuncle: Thank you for bringing the shell of my avatar, <Player's Name>.

Carbuncle: I thought that you would never return to this place.
I threatened your life, even if it was for the purpose of defeating the sleeping gods.

Carbuncle: But you fought me with every ounce of your strength, and bent the power of those slumbering deities to your will.

Carbuncle: That is what saved us at the end.

Carbuncle: You were never meant to submit to the will of the sleeping gods.
And I will never lose my faith in the children of Vana'diel.

Carbuncle: Even those ancient beings will one day learn the great truth from mortals.

He didn't help you because he thought you wouldn't release the summoning.

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>, you must dismiss the avatars!

Ifrit: How amusing.
Are you confused, mortal?

Ifrit: Did you meet us in battle at the behest of this creature?

Ifrit: Now it is clear.
Yet we will not be commanded by one such as you.

Carbuncle: It's hopeless...
There's only one thing left for me to do.
Defeat the summoner!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>!
You cannot control them!
I'm sorry, but their connection to this world must be severed!

This is not the words of someone who planned this. Carbuncle did not expect the energy taken from the 6 Celestial Avatars to take form, or attempt to drain Full Moon Fountain. Carbuncle fought you because he felt it was the only way to stop the summoning as you can apparently be controlled yourself if your will is not strong enough. Carbuncle's words in these cutscenes.

Because there are only 5 Mothercrystals. The reason is that the Deities need a median to manifest in. This is a Fact! Even in the tribune when they talk about the Celestial Avatars merging with something else. You can also see this in ToAU with the Iron Colossus and The Dark Rider.

No. There is no "deity" possessing a "median". Their names now were their names on Vana'diel before becoming Celestial Avatars. They became Celestial Avatars by the goddess herself.

The Goddess, sensing Titan and Daemdalus's great hope, beckoned the two to the heavens by holding out her hand.

The reason I believe the 5 terrestrial avatars are part of Promathia's soul is that:
He's referred to as the 'Twilight God,' not the God of Darkness, Not the God of Evil, the God of Twilight. Which means he is the inbetween of Dusk and Dawn. He also houses the lights of the Races, (Which could be the link to Carbuncle) He is the reason for the empty which inflicts eternal slumber (Diabolos). He is proven to become Shinryu, the God Dragon (Bahamut), Again He's the God of Twilight, so he also verges on the Night (Fenrir.) He can also be re-born (Phoenix). In Abyssea, you not once come across Bahamut, who commands All other Greater Dragons. Where is he? He already said that he'd plan to kill everyone if you failed. But magically, people are still alive, and there are still hordes of Greater Dragons roaming around. Where's Fenrir, He still would honor his pact, and have defended Windurst. Neither of these Avatars would have simple "Peaced out." Both are Prideful, and would have fought.

The reason he has the lights of the races is because he planted it there after Altana created the 5 races. Promathia, jealous of her creations, gave each of the races a flaw. Elvaan = Arrogance, Hume = Apathy, Tarutaru = Cowardice, Galka = Rage, and Mithra = Envy, as evident in the Ark Angels. Diabolos has nothing to do with the Emptiness, he feels it threatens Vana'diel when you speak with him in The Shrouded Maw, telling you to join his dream world to safety. If Diabolos was a byproduct of Promathia and the Emptiness, he would not fear it nor being a Terrestial avatar would let it harm Vana'diel.

Abyssea is the alternate dimension of what happened if you lost during the final fight of Chains of Promathia, Dawn. Promathia absorbed Bahamut and became Shinryu, which is why you don't come across him and why humanity is still around. Windurst is gone, the nations are gone in Abyssea, everyone is just wandering like Vagrants. You get this information speaking to the storyline related NPCs from the nations in Abyssea. As to why Fenrir isn't around in Abyssea, who knows. There's a lot of theories that could be crafted but just because Fenrir is not in Abyssea doesn't support a theory that all Terrestial Avatars come from Promathia.

The Zilarts most like couldn't wake the Sleeping Gods, because they had no means to enter the crystals. You can't destroy the crystals from the outside. Drawing on the power will eventually wake that God. Proof: Odin. His Protocrystal was below Xarcabard, but he was Fully awake when someone summoned him as the Dark Rider to fight the Fully Awaken Alexander, but now there's no longer a Protocrystal there.

I refuse to believe the Zilart, with all of their advanced technology and structures didn't have the ability to construct a tuning fork (the ones you use to fight the prime Avatars and mini). Still not showing any proof that harnessing the protocrystals = opening the Gate to the Gods. We know how it's opened already, I don't see the point in theorizing an alternative way to open the Gate to the Gods except trying to convince that Carbuncle has evil intent.

[Zeargi]

Leepe-Hoppe is doing what you are doing, hypothesizing. That is not fact.

Regarding the quote to Waking the Beast. You are only quoting/bolding a small segment of that entire cutscene. Of course the Celestial avatars feel more righteous than the Terrestial Avatars and humanity. If you read how each of them came into being Celestial avatars (Vana'diel Tribune). They are all pretty jaded from the world they left behind. That is not proof that Carbuncle is evil or has evil intent. Just because he needs the power of Celestial Avatars doesn't mean he shares their vision. He is simply a pragmatist. He knows their power will resurrect Fenrir and does it. He believes it will help humanity. You quoted it yourself.

He THINKS it'll revive Fenrir... It's the action of Reviving Joker and Resurrecting Karaha-Baruha, that actually brings him back. It's an assumption on his part, which means it's a FOOL ERRAND!

Nor is it proof that they are going to open the Gate of the Gods just because Shiva said "Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish..."

The Sleeping Gods want the Gates opened, and Paradise restored. NOT the terrestrial

He didn't help you because he thought you wouldn't release the summoning.

No, He tried to kill you because he believes that you CAN'T release the summoning.

Carbuncle: The fountain!

Carbuncle: The sleeping gods are draining it of power...

Carbuncle: I cannot allow this!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>, you must dismiss the avatars!

Ifrit: How amusing.
Are you confused, mortal?

Ifrit: Did you meet us in battle at the behest of this creature?

Ifrit: Now it is clear.
Yet we will not be commanded by one such as you.

Carbuncle: It's hopeless...
There's only one thing left for me to do.
Defeat the summoner!

Carbuncle: <Player's Name>!
You cannot control them!
I'm sorry, but their connection to this world must be severed!

This is not the words of someone who planned this. Carbuncle did not expect the energy taken from the 6 Celestial Avatars to take form, or attempt to drain Full Moon Fountain. Carbuncle fought you because he felt it was the only way to stop the summoning as you can apparently be controlled yourself if your will is not strong enough. Carbuncle's words in these cutscenes.
No. There is no "deity" possessing a "median". Their names now were their names on Vana'diel before becoming Celestial Avatars. They became Celestial Avatars by the goddess herself.

Those creatures are "Prime"
Prime(Def): of first importance; main. They are the originals
If they don't need a median then why did they Build 2 Giant Colossi? Also, you don't understand summoner much it seems. When you summon them as pets, who do you think is sustaining them in the world? YOU ARE!!! It's shown through the depletion of MP. You become the median that Fetters them to Vana'diel.

The reason he has the lights of the races is because he planted it there after Altana created the 5 races. Promathia, jealous of her creations, gave each of the races a flaw. Elvaan = Arrogance, Hume = Apathy, Tarutaru = Cowardice, Galka = Rage, and Mithra = Envy, as evident in the Ark Angels. Diabolos has nothing to do with the Emptiness, he feels it threatens Vana'diel when you speak with him in The Shrouded Maw, telling you to join his dream world to safety. If Diabolos was a byproduct of Promathia and the Emptiness, he would not fear it nor being a Terrestial avatar would let it harm Vana'diel.

Also incorrect, he gave them nothing directly. It was Altana's doing when she took the lights from the 5 Mothercrystals to make the races. She infused the 'Will of Promathia' into them so that he could live on through the people of Vana'diel. Possessing these flaws also serves as a distraction so that people won't attempt to open the Gates of the Gods, Reviving Promathia's Avatar which would siphon the life of all living things and bring them back to him so he could be completely reborn, and destroying the world. The Zilart Bros. Activating the Crystalline cause the 5 Crystals to re-active and awaken the sleeping Husk of Promathia, and allows the "Emptiness" (Which are those 5 traits) to escape from the Chamber of Eventides and feedback to the crystals.

The Shrouded Land of Dynamis is a parallel dimension separate from Vana'diel, and cannot be entered by normal means. It is a dreamworld created by the terrestrial avatar Diabolos, ruler of dreams, to escape from Vana'diel's fate. The Shadow Lord (known as the Dynamis Lord here), the Dark Kindred, the Forlorn Vanguards, Hydra Corps, and several others were all transported to or entered the realm at some point.

Diabolos: I am the ruler of dreams, and within my dreams--within my kingdom of Dynamis--people can escape the harshness of reality.

Diabolos: Emptiness consumes the body, but the soul lives on--it lives on in my world.

This is his solution to save the world. All the Terrestrial avatars see things differently, Bahamut has given up hope that Mankind can do anything and seeks to save the world by destroy the people that can bring about the "Keeper of The Apocalypse". Phoenix wishes to stand up and fight as she did tens of thousands of years ago, when the emptiness was still present for the Kuluu:

Tenzen: Of the five crystals, three have been overcome by the Emptiness...

Tenzen: Is it not the duty of the five terrestrial avatars to protect the crystals? Let us join in arms and defeat the enemy of light!

Diabolos: Battle the Emptiness...?

Diabolos: So, Phoenix still remains unwhole...

Diabolos: And that is why she continues to feed people false hopes, all the while forgetting the truths that lie in the battles fought ten thousand years ago...

Carbuncle: No matter how tightly sealed, as long as it exists alongside the mothercrystal, Promathia's will shall one day awaken.

Carbuncle: That is why I have come to guide you.
Guide you to the power of the slumbering gods.

Carbuncle: As many people as possible must possess this strength to prevent the awakening of the Twilight God.

Carbuncles idea is to infuse others with the Celestial Avatars power.

Nag'molada: I am Kuluu!
My strength comes from the protection of the terrestrial avatars. Without you, I am powerless!

Abyssea is the alternate dimension of what happened if you lost during the final fight of Chains of Promathia, Dawn. Promathia absorbed Bahamut and became Shinryu,which is why you don't come across him and why humanity is still around. Windurst is gone, the nations are gone in Abyssea, everyone is just wandering like Vagrants. You get this information speaking to the storyline related NPCs from the nations in Abyssea. As to why Fenrir isn't around in Abyssea, who knows. There's a lot of theories that could be crafted but just because Fenrir is not in Abyssea doesn't support a theory that all Terrestial Avatars come from Promathia.

If they didn't come from him, why would he bother to absorb them anyway? Yes, I made the assumption, but it never says he absorbs Bahamut. The only Avatar we know he has is Phoenix, because she was inside of Selh'teus. And it's only the children of Altana that have the 'Will of Promathia', so he'd have no reason to Absorb the Terrestrial Avatars. Still all the other Celestial Avatars are present, and only the two Terrestrial Avatars that have shown they can divide themselves, but all the others are gone... It's a theory yes, but at least it makes sense.

I refuse to believe the Zilart, with all of their advanced technology and structures didn't have the ability to construct a tuning fork (the ones you use to fight the prime Avatars and mini). Still not showing any proof that harnessing the protocrystals = opening the Gate to the Gods. We know how it's opened already, I don't see the point in theorizing an alternative way to open the Gate to the Gods except trying to convince that Carbuncle has evil intent.

Yep, they're really great... I mean totally awesome... That's why the were beaten by a handful of inferior beings and 5 animals.... Yep, must be so great being a dead race...